Tag: Aaron Frost

Book Plunge: Christian Body: Nakedness in the Ancient Culture

Were the ancients running around naked? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

One of the big problems I have with this section is that Frost makes several claims, but he never cites any sources on those claims. The information could be true enough, but how can I check? I have no idea where Frost gets his data and I have no reason to think that I should see him as an authority.

Let’s start with one claim he makes.

The first factor to understand is the economy of ancient Palestine. Fabric had to be hand-made through a long process of gathering materials, treating, dying, spinning, weaving, and sewing. Because of all this labor and expense, clothing was not something you could pick up at the local Salvation Army for an hour’s wage. It was a valuable commodity.

Frost, Aaron. Christian Body: Modesty and the Bible (pp. 80-81). UNKNOWN. Kindle Edition.

Okay. I can agree that this is a costly and timely process, but how does it follow then that people went without clothes? Let’s talk about what else was a costly and timely process. Food. Getting something to eat and getting something to drink were costly and timely. Despite that, we know the ancients did it because, well, we’re their descendants so they obviously survived long enough to reproduce. (That was also a dangerous experience often as women died in childbirth, but the ancients still did it.)

He then cites Scripture where if you were poor, you went without clothing. Yes, and you went without food. You can say you simply went naked, but you can also say you simply went hungry.

The first two Scriptures Frost cites are Job 24:7 and 10.

Here’s 7:

Lacking clothes, they spend the night naked;
    they have nothing to cover themselves in the cold.

This is talking about the poor. Now go down to verse 10 and what do you see?

Lacking clothes, they go about naked;
they carry the sheaves, but still go hungry.

Nakedness and hunger go together. This is not saying they simply went naked. This is saying going naked was a BAD thing in that culture.

Ezekiel 16:39 is next and yet, one wonders if Frost even read the verse.

Then I will deliver you into the hands of your lovers, and they will tear down your mounds and destroy your lofty shrines. They will strip you of your clothes and take your fine jewelry and leave you stark naked.

This is not commendable and it is not as Frost says “People simply going naked because they had no food. The whole passage is God talking about how He made a covenant with His people to be their husband and the surrounding verses show how strong His judgment is.

35 “‘Therefore, you prostitute, hear the word of the Lord! 36 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Because you poured out your lust and exposed your naked body in your promiscuity with your lovers, and because of all your detestable idols, and because you gave them your children’s blood, 37 therefore I am going to gather all your lovers, with whom you found pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see you stark naked. 38 I will sentence you to the punishment of women who commit adultery and who shed blood; I will bring on you the blood vengeance of my wrath and jealous anger. 39 Then I will deliver you into the hands of your lovers, and they will tear down your mounds and destroy your lofty shrines. They will strip you of your clothes and take your fine jewelry and leave you stark naked. 40 They will bring a mob against you, who will stone you and hack you to pieces with their swords. 41 They will burn down your houses and inflict punishment on you in the sight of many women. I will put a stop to your prostitution, and you will no longer pay your lovers. 42 Then my wrath against you will subside and my jealous anger will turn away from you; I will be calm and no longer angry.

Nakedness in this case is a PUNISHMENT! Jerusalem played fast and loose with her body. Now God is going to say “If that’s the way you want it, I will let everyone see you.” This is something shameful!

Next is Luke 3:11.

John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

This is John the Baptist telling you that if you can spare clothes for the naked, do so! Again, nakedness is not celebrated! For this one, I will post the surrounding verses:

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Clothing was a physical need! Nakedness was not something to celebrate. Frost does say it would be embarrassing, but not for the reasons we would imagine. He doesn’t say what those reasons were nor does he say what the real reason is. Frost does say that the nudity was not considered to be immoral, and aside from Ezekiel 16, that is true. However, that’s a far cry from ancient Israelites running around saying “Look at the natural body in all of its glory!”

Frost then goes on to say:

The commands to clothe the naked are always in the context of providing warmth, protection, and social dignity to the underprivileged, but there is never once any indication in Scripture that body-shame, lust, or carnality had anything to do with it whatsoever.

Frost, Aaron. Christian Body: Modesty and the Bible (p. 86).ess UNKNOWN. Kindle Edition.

But this again is the false dilemma that Frost always presents. Either the body is shameful and nudity is wrong, or else nudity should be celebrated. He says nothing about honor and shame. I suspect he knows nothing about them. He later says that nakedness, homelessness, and hunger are not desirable, but they are not sinful. Again, Frost needs to say who is saying that they are. For instance, I fully agree that a husband and wife having sex in and of itself is not sinful. Doing it in the middle of the grocery store or where it could put one of the people in physical danger to a health condition is different.

This is something Frost still hasn’t dealt with. He has gone up against a straw man and has not dealt with social context. As of this point also, there have been zero scholars cited. I am still waiting.

In Christ,
Nick Peters
(And I affirm the virgin birth)

 

 

 

Book Plunge: Christian Body: 1 Timothy 2:9

What does 1 Timothy require us to wear in church? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

Many people in thinking about nudity and Scripture will likely point to 1 Timothy 2:9. I would agree ith them. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians also get this passage wrong thinking it is talking about something that it really isn’t. It could apply to what they think it talks about, but there’s no real reason that it would.

Many of us today think that what Paul has in mind is not to wear something that would drive a man to lust. A woman shouldn’t wear a really short skirt or a top that will show a noticeable amount of cleavage for instance. I am not saying that that idea is wrong, but I am saying that this is not what Paul is addressing in 1 Tim. 2:9.

In that context, modest dress would refer to that which would be fitting to one’s social setting. If you are not rich, you do not try to dress to look as if you are rich. In this chapter, Frost will say that clothing isn’t really addressed.

The problem is that the word for clothing is extremely hard to find. I went looking at web sites I used in doing research on Greek words and didn’t come up with much. The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says:

In the NT the verb occurs only in Acts 19:35–36, where the clerk calms the excited mob at Ephesus. The authority expressed by katastéllō differs from that expressed by the use of katéseisen when Paul as a witness to Christ brings the crowd to order at Jerusalem in Acts 21:27ff. The noun occurs in the advice to women believers in 1 Tim. 2:9, where Timothy is told to exhort them to adopt either a seemly demeanor or seemly apparel. The context of worship perhaps supports the former rendering, but the use of stolē for “garment” in the Apologists favors the latter.

Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, and Geoffrey William Bromiley, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume (Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans, 1985), 1075.

Meanwhile, another website says that:

repress, restrain, οἶκτον E.IA934; τὸν ὄχλον Act.Ap.19.35, cf. Wilcken Chr.10 (ii B.C., prob.); κ. τὰς ἐπιθυμίας Phld.Rh.2.284 S., cf. Arr.Epict.3.19.5; τοὺς νέους Plu.2.207e, cf. 547b, etc.:—Pass., ἅπαντα λήξει καὶ κατασταλήσεται Apollod.Com.18; of persons, to be placed under restraint, reduced to order, PTeb.41.21 (ii B.C.), BGU1192.5 (i B.C.); also κατεσταλμένοι τοῖς ἤθεσι of calm, sedate character, opp. τολμηρός, D.S.1.76, cf. Arr.Epict.4.4.10; κατεσταλμένον ἦθος D.S.10.3; κατέσταλται πρὸς τὸ κόσμιον Plu.Comp.Lyc.Num.3, cf. Ael.NA4.29, Arr. Epict.3.23.16.

If the reading is ambiguous then, the next place to go is as TDNT said, the apologists, these are the fathers of the first centuries of the church who knew the language and their use of it favors garment.

What does this mean? It would mean we would largely have to depend on context to understand. The main point is Paul is wanting people to not draw attention to themselves by going fancy but go modestly. The problem is if this is somewhere where Frost thinks he has a strong point, then it’s weak since we have so little usage of the word to compare and the understanding of the early church implies a garment.

Now one point that Frost does get right here is when he says:

Wherever we go we should seek to dress in a way that would downplay any facade of status, elitism, or wealth that would draw attention to self-superiority. How we obey this passage depends entirely on those around us.

Frost, Aaron. Christian Body: Modesty and the Bible (p. 74). UNKNOWN. Kindle Edition.

This is certainly accurate. We should not dress in church to draw attention to ourselves. We should dress in a way that will honor God.

I still hope to do more study on the term under question in the future, but for now, I’m not convinced by Frost.

Next time, we’ll start looking at how nudity was understood in the ancient culture.

In Christ,
Nick Peters
(And I affirm the virgin birth)

 

 

 

Book Plunge: Christian Body: Romans 14

Is clothing a Romans 14 issue? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

Many of us know about Romans 14 issues. In the ancient world, it was what kind of food you could eat and what days you could observe. We have our own. It can be what kind of entertainment do you partake in. What should you wear to church? What kind of music should be played in church?

Well, Frost wants us to consider that maybe the question of if we should wear clothes is one of those questions. He says that Paul says that earthly things are neutral. They cannot be spiritually unclean and it only matters how we use them in our hearts. He then says this applies to clothing because we have taken what God has made and said in our hearts it is unclean.

Again, Frost seems to always chase after windmills. He never tells us who is saying this.

So let’s try some other scenarios of things God created and see how well that works.

Sex is created by God. It’s a good and beautiful gift. He made it to be enjoyed by husband and wife and we should not look at it as shameful. Therefore, you think it’s okay for a husband and wife to publicly have sex in a church service. I don’t. Let’s just agree to disagree.

God created defecation. He made the body to work in this way. It’s a part of the natural order. You think it’s okay to drop your drawers in the middle of the street and poop on the sidewalk. I don’t. Let’s agree to disagree. (I do understand this is a hot debate in San Francisco right now.)

He then quotes James 1:14 saying temptation comes from within, and therefore lust is caused by that which comes from sinful desires and nothing that we see.

Yes, everyone out there. If you have ever lusted, it had nothing to do with something that you saw. Nope. It was all you. You just spontaneously started lusting for no reason.

Now I am not saying that the sight of a naked woman forces a man to lust. A man needs to control himself, but that doesn’t mean that women also don’t have responsibility. Achan needed to control his own greed, but seeing the riches in the ruins of Jericho were enough to inspire greed.

Frost also tells us that clothing causes lust. Remove the clothing and the erotic effect will disappear.

Look. I know it’s only anecdotal, but I can safely say that when I was married, seeing my wife naked never ceased to have an erotic effect for me. I contend Frost lives in a delusionary world if he thinks this will happen. He is right that if something is forbidden, it often becomes that which is most longed for, as in some societies, for instance, women’s feet are covered to avoid lust. Society still recognizes some parts of a person’s body need to be treated with special honor.

Ultimately, Frost has taken his personal issue and acted like suddenly it’s a Romans 14 issue because of disagreement. We’ll be looking at 1 Timothy 2 next time, but I find Frost’s case highly unconvincing. He would need to show me why he thinks it would be wrong for a husband and wife to have sex in church publicly. After all, God created that good thing and it’s not shameful or sinful either.

In Christ,
Nick Peters
(And I affirm the virgin birth)

 

 

Book Plunge: Christian Body: Leviticus 18 and 20

What does the holiness code have to say? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

So we all know this passage. What most of us probably know about it is it condemns same-sex behavior. Frost in this section says that terms used in this chapter are euphemisms for having sex. With that, there is no disagreement. Sex is often spoke of in such terms.

When I was growing up, I remember a movie being advertised called Sleeping With The Enemy. Now for me, I thought this was a bizarre title, but I was an elementary schooler. How was I to know any better. Why would you sleep with an enemy like that? For me, sleeping with someone meant going to bed next to them. Now I know far better what it really meant!

Frost does tell us that people still could bathe together in public baths and be out in the nude regularly and says the documentation will come later. That will be accepted for now and I will see what he says when I get there. That being said, Frost still makes the mistake of assuming that the culture in ancient Israel was just like our culture or at least similar enough.

We are very individualistically based and we set the rule for ourselves. You obey the law not so people will think well of you so much as you want to be a good guy and not go to jail. Even if we granted that nudity was far more common in the ancient society, there would have been other controls set in by the group to make sure ogling didn’t take place. It is questionable that such is the case in a pornified society such as our own.

Frost also contends that in our society, we think looking at a naked person, at least of the opposite sex, is sinful. No. That in itself is not sinful. If I walk down the street and a woman suddenly jumps out in front of me completely nude in an attempt to flash me, I have done nothing wrong. I cannot help that. If I chase after her to at least ogle her, or perhaps even more, then yes, I have done something wrong. The looking itself is not a sin.

Frost keeps regularly going with this idea that nudity in itself is sinful when it obviously isn’t. So far, he has not dealt with a distinction between a private and a public sphere and he has not interacted with any scholarship on the topic. If you want to understand the biblical culture, you also need to understand them as an honor-shame culture and not a guilt-innocence culture. The group did what they could to censor unwanted behavior and individualism would have been frowned upon.

So again, that is another day and another post. I walk away once more convinced that Frost hasn’t really done the deep looking that needs to be done on an important topic, and I do not doubt that this is an important topic. The church needs a better understanding of the nature of the body, love, lust, sex, and marriage. So far, I am skeptical I will find it here.

In Christ,
Nick Peters
(And I affirm the virgin birth)

 

Book Plunge: Christian Body: Exodus 20:26

Why did priests wear underwear? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

In this section, we’re going to interact with Frost and another writer as well online who engages with this verse. If God wanted the priests to wear garments in their work, it seems that God is opposed to nudity. Right?

To begin with, let’s see what it would mean to say God is opposed to nudity. Most of us are not, provided it is in the proper context. Taking a shower at home or having sex with your spouse? Go ahead and get naked. Want to go swimming in your own private pool or lake away from watching eyes in the buff? Go ahead. Again, this is the private and public sphere distinction.

Frost points to an idea of purdah. You can go to the link for more on that, but it seems like Frost is speaking in extremes. It’s either you hold to a doctrine that everything must be covered entirely, or you go completely naked. Frost tells us that if God wanted a purdah doctrine, he had thousands of years and pages in to tell us.

Because apparently Frost needs a strict command that says “Hey guys, can you wear clothes? That would be kind of cool!”

A more thorough look at this comes from someone online named Mud Walker who I was pointed to by the person who got me started on this. His page is called Renude Life. You can find a link to his argument here.

He states at the start that biblical scholars agree that garments in those days were loose and easily blown aside. Maybe that is so. The problem is he doesn’t tell us any biblical scholars who say this.

He says that nudity and sexual intercourse was common in pagan services. None of this is given with any citations, though I would not be surprised, especially with sexual intercourse. He also tells us that since the priests used these garments, we may assume that they were naked the rest of the time.

In other words, if you have some work clothes that you wear just when you go to work, it’s safe to assume the rest of the time you’re naked.

Mud Walker tells us that simple nudity was common in the ancient world. One illustration of this is a fresco of Pharaoh’s daughter finding Moses while bathing. Well, Pharaoh’s daughter is naked, which tells us that people in ancient times were naked when they bathed. That’s not much of a stretch.

A link from that part takes you to this page. In this, you find that the term to expose someone’s nakedness was a euphemism for sexual intercourse. At times, yes. Definitely in Leviticus 18 and 20. The only link there takes you to recommended resources, which means Mud Walker has presented us with no hard data on this.

Not only that, but we have Scripture that says otherwise.

Consider Deuteronomy 29:5

Yet the LORD says, “During the forty years that I led you through the wilderness, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet.

I looked it up. The word for clothing means, get this, clothing. The same word is used when the Gibeonites approach Joshua in Joshua 9 and talk about how their clothes are damaged from their long travels, which they faked entirely. Nothing from Joshua saying “Guys. We’re in the wilderness. Just go nude like we are.”

“But Nick, you haven’t cited any biblical scholars!”

Fair enough. So let’s see what Pilch and Malina have to say about this:

Analogously, great concern was shown for the dress of the priest who offered sacrifice, first that he not have to ascend stairs less his nude loins be revealed in sacred space (Exod 20:26), and then that he wear breeches to forestall accidental exposure (Exod 28:42). Thus nudity was linked with issues of purity and pollution in myth and practice. As Genesis and Exodus indicate, if we would understand the cultural perspective of the ancient Israelites and Judahites toward nudity, we must see the issue through the eyes of two complementary models, namely, honor/shame and purity/pollution.

Pilch, John J.. Handbook of Biblical Social Values, Third Edition (Matrix: The Bible in Mediterranean Context 10) (pp. 118-119). Cascade Books, an Imprint of Wipf and Stock Publishers. Kindle Edition.

Unfortunately, the authors we are interacting with do not show any interaction with honor/shame material or purity/pollution material. Frost comes at this with a Western mindset that says it has to be spelled out explicitly. Scripture doesn’t work that way. It is a modern approach that is quite good at creating fundamentalist atheists, but not so much serious studies in Scripture.

In Christ,
Nick Peters
(And I affirm the virgin birth)