Tag: Evolution

Book Plunge: Anarchy Evolution Chapter 8

What does believing entail? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

A surprising statement in this chapter is that Graffin doesn’t like the word natural. He says that in a sense, everything is natural. There are some problems with such a statement. If we don’t know what natural means, what does it mean to say everything is natural? Second, if we don’t know what it means, how could we know that everything is natural? Finally, if you are equating natural with what is real, is that not begging the question?

This is also one reason I don’t speak of natural/supernatural. The terms are too vague. I prefer to speak of material and immaterial or extramaterial.

He also says he has a similar problem with God. If the word refers to something that is everything and everywhere, what purpose does the word serve? First off, the word would likely still have some meaning. Second, that’s pantheism, Patrick!

He then goes on to say that if God is something, it should be observable by everyone, examined, and shared by other people. If this is the standard, then several immaterial realities cannot be real. That would include triangularity, goodness, love, numbers, and even existence itself.

“But I see existence every day!”

No. You see things that exist just like you see good things and you see triangles, but you do not see existence, goodness, and triangularity.

Not too long after this, Graffin says the naturalist worldview says that everything is capable of being observed, experimented on, and understanding. Again then, none of those things I mentioned can exist on naturalism. That is the problem with it.

If there is no destiny, there is no design. There’s only life and death. My goal is to learn about life by living it, not by trying to figure out a cryptic plan that the Creator had in store for me.

Graffin, Greg; Olson, Steve. Anarchy Evolution: Faith, Science, and Bad Religion in a World Without God (p. 214). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

This is a problem science has got under naturalism where it denies final causality in denying ultimate purpose. Get rid of final causality and science can’t exist. There has to be regular connection between A and B. I do agree that there is no cryptic will of God for our lives that we are to discover, which will be the subject of soon-to-come blogs.

Standing among those remnant populations, it is impossible not to conclude that we are somehow a part of all this. Some would call this a “spiritual connection”—the sense of being part of some larger web of life. Whatever you want to call it, the feeling is inescapable that we are living among the leftovers of a recent mass extinction. This realization is as emotionally moving to me as, I’m sure, the realization of God’s will was to my great-grandpa Zerr.

Graffin, Greg; Olson, Steve. Anarchy Evolution: Faith, Science, and Bad Religion in a World Without God (p. 232). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

I find it fascinating that Graffin so often makes these statements in this book. He says earlier there is no destiny but just life and death, and then says this. It’s like he’s almost there but refuses to take that final look to see if there is something more. It’s tragic really.

In the last chapter, we’ll see what Graffin says about the after-death.

In Christ,
Nick Peters
(And I affirm the virgin birth)

Book Plunge: Anarchy Evolution Chapter 4

Is atheism an idol? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

Once again, this is a refreshing chapter title to read as Graffin writes about The False Idol of Atheism. Would that more atheists would write this way. I have said before that the best service someone like Dawkins could do is to write about just science and not touch at all on subjects he has not studied. When he does so, he loses in those areas, but those who are skeptical of the science and know the other areas well will not take him seriously in the science.

In this chapter, Graffin talks a lot about his love of music, but says something tragic. He says that in listening to his mother’s album of Jesus Christ Superstar, he learned a lot about music, but he also learned about the basic outline of the New Testament. He considered it a bonus that he didn’t have to read about the New Testament to learn about the life of Jesus. What would he say to someone who said “I watched a movie on the life of Darwin! What a bonus! I didn’t have to read books on Darwin to learn about him!”?

This is not to say one cannot learn from such sources, but it is to say the best sources are normally books and one who wants to be informed should be reading them. I have produced materials like podcasts and YouTube videos, but I encourage people to go to the books. Learn from the main sources.

He says later that many people who come to naturalism start from a religious worldview and just ask questions and do not get answers. Sadly, this is true. Even more sad, many churches treat the questions as if they are a problem instead of embracing them. There are pastors out there who will have the judgment of souls on their hands for not tending to their flocks properly, a statement that should frighten every pastor out there. It should. That is a serious responsibility and you’d better be able to base your position in the pulpit on something serious.

He also says some people want to hold on to religion and run from scientific claims. Sadly, this is also true. If you insulate your worldview from reality, what good is it? Christianity must be capable of explaining everything just as any other worldview.

He then says he doesn’t understand the idea of spiritual, but not religious, to which I also agree. We live in an age where there is a spiritual vacuum. Naturalism just doesn’t cover it.

I am also pleased to read how he says that he doesn’t talk about Darwin’s reasons for rejecting theism when he teaches undergrad. What is more important in Darwin is what he thought. Even if one does not believe in evolution, this should be accepted. We need to understand what Darwin thought first.

Graffin then goes on to quote some song lyrics he has to a song and then talks about them in a statement I found quite inspiring.

In my opinion, the worst line in this song is the one where I made a bold claim about religion (“religion’s just synthetic frippery”). The rest of the song conjures up images that apply to everyone, regardless of whether they believe in God. And the most compelling lines of the song, in my opinion, are the questions. This song has been a perennial favorite among Bad Religion fans—believers and nonbelievers alike—and part of the reason for the song’s success, I think, is that its questions are ones that listeners ask themselves.

Graffin, Greg; Olson, Steve. Anarchy Evolution: Faith, Science, and Bad Religion in a World Without God (p. 113). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

I appreciate someone who says they made a bold statement about religion and regrets it. He does acknowledge his band has Christian fans. Generally, it’s not a good idea to alienate your support base and I think a lot of atheists would revel in singing a song that blasted religion. Graffin is a step up from them.

He also talks about non-believers who seem to loathe God and form groups of their own which he says come off like the groups they tend to vilify. Indeed. In a way, internet atheism is a cult of its own. You have to buy into every argument and you can’t give an inch to your opponents on anything.

He says religious believers do not want to debate the big questions in life, but then says many atheists are the same way. I contend many religious people do not want to debate the big questions, but we should. We need to face the big questions head on because we believe Jesus answers the big questions. This is why I encourage atheists to read books that disagree with them, and sadly, they do not.

Yet after saying this, he ends the chapter saying it’s time to cast aside the endless debate on God’s existence. Not at all. If we want to talk about the ultimate questions, this is the biggest one. This is the one that shapes everything else. We must face it head-on.

In Christ,
Nick Peters
(And I affirm the virgin birth)

 

 

 

Book Plunge: Anarchy Evolution Chapter 3

Is natural selection an idol? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

That question comes from the title of this chapter. Graffin has called it “The Idol of Natural Selection.” It’s quite refreshing to read an atheist writing these kinds of things.

At one point in this chapter, he says that Darwin and Wallace shattered the comfortable intellectual certainty that natural theology had. Unfortunately, it is not said how they did this. Since many natural theologians can comfortably fit evolution into their worldview, it’s hard to see how that is something that ultimately shatters it.

He also says after this it did damage to Darwn too as it left him thinking there was no design to nature. Now if he was going with Paley’s watchmaker, which is likely, that could be, but had he gone with an idea such as teleology, this would not have been a problem. This is not to demean Paley as Paley wrote much outside of the watchmaker argument that is excellent in Christian apologetics and it is a shame that what he seems to be most remembered for is an argument lambasted by many of his critics.

He then says that Darwin’s daughter Annie died at the age of ten which destroyed the last bit of religious belief Darwin had. It is important to note that many cases of atheism do seem to hinge on emotional despair and loss. It can often hide behind intellectualism, but scratch long enough and you uncover an emotional wound. Let’s make sure we’re not the same way. If we are Christians and say we go where the evidence leads, then that means that we can’t hold on to something for the sake of an emotion. We would not want Mormons to be doing that.

There are times Graffin says something that seems to indicate that he could be on the right track. Unfortunately, he immediately drops it and moves on. Consider this for example:

Natural selection even had a shadowy, theological appeal. It seemed to offer a direction or ultimate purpose to life. Over time, living things appeared to grow more complex. As new generations of organisms acquired new traits, they became progressively better adapted to their environments. What better evidence of a wisdom in nature preordained in the mind of God? Even for nontheists, the order created by natural selection might have seemed at least partially to compensate for the loss of God’s oversight.

Graffin, Greg; Olson, Steve. Anarchy Evolution: Faith, Science, and Bad Religion in a World Without God (pp. 58-59). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

Such is the point. If a system is set up to make objects better and better, that can be an indication of divine wisdom and if you believe in teleology, it fits in just fine with that. I am unsure what Graffin has in mind with the statement of the loss of God’s oversight. What was He supposed to do differently?

The next section is also worth quoting in length:

And since I believe that dogma must be challenged wherever it is found—whether in religion, science, or music—I have spent time exploring the ideas of the iconoclasts who have examined natural selection critically. The result is a picture of evolution quite different from the standard textbook account.8 But before I look more closely at natural selection, I have to issue a blanket disclaimer. Whenever an evolutionary biologist identifies a problem with standard accounts of evolutionary theory, creationists tend to wave the statement around as evidence that evolution is fatally flawed or “a theory in crisis.” That’s ridiculous. As I’ve already pointed out, the occurrence of evolution is indisputable. The idea that God could have planted the entire fossil record in the earth as a way of testing the faith of believers is preposterous. I am not at all interested in leaving the door open for discussions with advocates of the modern “intelligent design” movement.

Graffin, Greg; Olson, Steve. Anarchy Evolution: Faith, Science, and Bad Religion in a World Without God (p. 59). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

I am not speaking in favor of the ID community, but it seems odd to say that dogma must be challenged and then say you’re not interested in discussing with advocates of an opposite viewpoint. I will agree that we should not use gaps in evolution as an ultimate defeated. Christianity should not be built on finding gaps in science as it assumes then that science is the ultimate battleground that determines if God exists or not. I also agree that it is ridiculous to say God planted the fossil record with it being false to test our faith. Perhaps it might work for a Muslim approach where Allah is the greatest of deceivers, but it will not work for an approach where God is the God of all truth.

That being said, I have no problem with the questioning of dogma, and that includes my own. This is why I ask people in dialogue what the last book they read that disagreed with them was. I normally get crickets to that. Stay in an echochamber and do not be surprised if your mind never changes.

He also says creationists have a tendency to mischaracterize what evolutionary biologists say which shows their intellectual dishonesty. I would have liked to have seen the examples. I am not denying that they exist, but the examples need to be shown. That being said, I could easily say the same about atheists who trot out defeated arguments espousing positions like Jesus mythicism and other claims regularly.

He also says the ultimate motivation of ID is not scientific. Unfortunately, this relies on mind reading. Could it be many are more interested in theology? Sure. I could say the same about many atheists wanting atheism to be true and some have explicitly said they want atheism to be true, like Thomas Nagel. Such claims are irrelevant in the long run. What matters is the data and not why the data is brought forward.

He also says that the idea is to create a “wedge” to break science’s allegiance to “atheistic naturalism”, but we saw in the last chapter, he said that monism is the default worldview of natural science. Why does he put atheistic naturalism in quotes then? If someone says “You have to be an atheist to do science” you will stop many great minds from doing science. I have no problem with someone who is an atheist wanting to enter into studies of theology and Scripture. Have at it! Show us what we have got wrong.

He later says that many scientists do hold to a teleology still, which does show he has some idea what it is. Graffin says that we do not see everything optimized in nature, but who says teleology works in that way? Teleology simply has a link that is essential. An acorn all things being equal grows into an oak tree and not into a stalagmite. The sun’s rays melt ice and do not turn it into bubble gum. This is a slipping in an idea of theology that everything should be optimal that has not been backed.

In all of this, while there is interesting material about science and Graffin’s band, I do not find the claims convincing. Again, Graffin could win the battle on evolution and be no closer to winning the war.

In Christ,
Nick Peters
(And I affirm the virgin birth)

 

 

Book Plunge: Anarchy Evolution Chapter 2

Does life make sense? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

We’re continuing our work through Greg Graffin’s book Anarchy Religion. Again as I go through this more and more, unlike other atheist books, it doesn’t come across as a mockery or an effort to destroy theism at all costs nor do I sense hostility. It’s as if Graffin is saying “This is my opinion and I think you should agree with it, but if you don’t, that’s cool too.”

As I said in the last post, the emphasis is on evolution. He does talk about how he talked to some experts in evolutionary thought and one such as Will Provine said evolution is not his friend. Graffin mentions this because he doesn’t want us talking too much about cultural changes as evolutionary changes.

He does say that before Darwin, nothing made sense in biology except in light of natural theology. The ironic thing is that many people who hold to natural theology like myself would not have a problem with evolution. It would just be that if this is how God did it, that’s fine. He’s God and He will do what He wants. It could be that many of these battles is not about theism, but more about a certain kind of view on how God should do things and how the Bible should be interpreted.

Of course, if evolution is wrong, that’s fine for me too. I don’t hang my hat on either side. I’m not a scientist so I don’t comment where I don’t know. I can comment on what it means if it’s true or false, but on the science itself, I say nothing.

However, Graffin does say that after Darwin, the role of God in nature was reduced to irrelevance. This is certainly a statement I disagree with. If anything, that there exists a means in the universe whereby simple beings become more complex I think points to teleology. If there is teleology, then vis a vis the fifth way of Aquinas, there is theism. Evolution can undo a certain idea of how God should operate, but God is the one keeping the whole chain going and holding all of existence together. That’s not a small part.

Graffin then talks about interviewing scientists to see how many hold to theistic views. It is not a shock that he gets a small number. Too many scientists often make poor philosophers. The question is not a scientific question but a philosophical one. You could poll all the philosophers out there and see how many of them held to evolution. Whatever the results, it would be irrelevant. The philosophers do not speak on this. The scientists do.

He later says that monism is the default view of science and skepticism is the view of science. Monism is the idea meaning that there is only one reality and that is the material one, but why should I think that? He does say in science claims have to be based on empirical knowledge, and I agree, but I as a Thomist think all knowledge is based on empirical claims and science is only a subset. It would be more accurate to say many scientists come from a monistic stance. It is not required.

Also, I hear scientists are skeptical a lot, but the problem is I think they are only selectively skeptical. When they read someone like Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion, they think his arguments have dealt a death knell, but they do not go and read the other side to see about them. I have seen many scientists buy into some of the worst ways of thinking when it comes to religion. It is a natural tendency we all have to embrace what agrees with us already and be skeptical of what doesn’t without doing fact-checking. I daresay I am more skeptical than many of these scientists are.

He also says religion does not embrace the discovery of empirical new knowledge, which is why the Catholic Church in the medieval period had their own astronomy centers and why Christian scientists were doing science throughout the medieval period based on empirical thinking. Graffin says some fascinating things, but this is a downside in that he is not skeptical enough. I encourage him to go and read Tim O’Neill for an example. He is an atheist who runs history for atheists.

Then we get this:

After all, religion makes many claims about the natural world. The Bible states that a great flood destroyed everything on earth, that the sun stood still, that Jesus was born of a virgin mother, and that the dead came back to life. Though some of these statements can be understood metaphorically, at least some are clearly meant to be taken literally, since much Christian theology rests on their veracity. I was surprised by the answers I got. The majority of the evolutionary biologists (72 percent) said that religion is a social phenomenon that has developed with the biological evolution of our species. In other words, they see religion as a part of our culture. They do not necessarily see it conflicting with science. This seems like social courtesy to me, not intellectual honesty.

Graffin, Greg; Olson, Steve. Anarchy Evolution: Faith, Science, and Bad Religion in a World Without God (p. 45). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

This is quite problematic. I definitely do affirm the virgin birth and the resurrection, but there are all manner of interpretations on the other issues. I also find it disingenuous for him to assume the respondents to a survey he did on this where just being socially courteous. Why not just take them at their word?

But then, he refers to a biologist who rejected theism early on and it is one of the most ridiculous reasons I have ever read.

One of them, John Bonner of Prince ton University, told me, “The reason I decided one day that I didn’t really want any religion at all at that age—well, I was maybe fourteen by this time—was that birds, sparrows outside my window, seem to be having a perfectly fine existence and are managing tremendously well…. I thought, ‘They can do that without God,’ so that’s what made me decide that religion was not for me. [From] that moment on I really did not believe in God.”

Graffin, Greg; Olson, Steve. Anarchy Evolution: Faith, Science, and Bad Religion in a World Without God (p. 47). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

I suspect John Bonner drives a car, writes on a computer, has a phone, goes grocery shopping, uses language, etc. Birds do not do this. They are still having a tremendously fine existence. Or is it that Bonner just goes with the birds when they do something he wants?

To end on a positive, Graffin does say when he teaches his students, he tries to let them take the science and go with their own conclusions. I hope this is so. One of the greatest problems we have is thinking people have to choose between religion and science. The more this dichotomy is pushed, the more both sides lose great minds.

We’ll continue next time.

In Christ,
Nick Peters
(And I affirm the virgin birth)

 

Book Plunge: Anarchy Evolution Chapter 1

What do I think of Greg Graffin’s book? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

This book says it’s by Graffin and Steve Olson, but Graffin seems to be the main writer as it is a lot about his story and his research.

So let’s start with some confessions. First off, Graffin is apparently the lead singer of a band called Bad Religion. I have heard of this band, but I do not know if I have ever heard any of their songs. I could not name one of them. I am impressed to hear that despite this, Graffin has a doctorate in a scientific field and teaches at a university. Most music stars wouldn’t do that.

I also want to say that this book has been surprising. I try to always read one book I disagree with and while I thoroughly disagree with Graffin, I do not find him demeaning or insulting. This is quite relieving to see in an atheist book. If anything, I find him quite enjoyable to read even while I disagree with him. I thnk he’s quite open and he seems to be the kind of guy I could hang out with at a restaurant and talk about our worldviews together.

This book largely focuses on science and readers know that I don’t touch science as science. I will talk about the history of it and the philosophy of it, but not the ins and outs of it. This book also largely focuses on evolution and readers of this blog know I don’t care one way or another about that topic. Graffin can win the battle with me and lose the war.

Looking at the first chapter, let’s look at one statement he makes about morality.

Either harming other people is wrong, in which case God is unnecessary, or harming other people is acceptable, in which case God’s admonitions are misguided.

Graffin, Greg; Olson, Steve. Anarchy Evolution: Faith, Science, and Bad Religion in a World Without God (p. 4). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

But why is it wrong? This is just another version of the Euthyphro dilemma. It might seem obvious to you, but is it? If we are matter in motion, who cares what one bit of matter does to another bit of matter?

What I want to know is where does goodness come from? Is anything truly good or not? If so, how did it get that way? Goodness is not a material property. You can study the matter of something all day long and you will not find goodness there.

Now do you need to know God exists to know about goodness? No. Do you need to believe in God to know about good? No. Do you need God to form a basis for the existing of good? Yes. You can get to Washington D.C. from anywhere else in America without a map and even by chance if you don’t know that it exists, but you cannot get there without D.C. existing.

Graffin also says that it is a mistake to conclude from the anarchy of the material world that life has no meaning. Graffin says the opposite. The purposelessness emphasizes the tremendous meaning of human life. Okay? Why? What is that based on? Think about what Bertrand Russell said in A Free Man’s Worship.

Such, in outline, but even more purposeless, more void of meaning, is the world which Science presents for our belief. Amid such a world, if anywhere, our ideals henceforward must find a home. That Man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins–all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built.

Graffin also says evolution provides the context for how he lives. He admits that it has implications that can make us uneasy. He ends by saying on matters of important questions we must all accept the truth, no matter how difficult it might be. I completely agree with this last part! This is something that makes reading Graffin so refreshing.

He also says evolution is anarchic, but out of that has risen great beauty. I first want to know how that is possible in a purely material world. Material things are beautiful, but it is not because of the matter itself but because of the form of the matter. That’s Aristotelianism though which would also say evolution does have a purpose. It works towards the survival of the fittest. If evolution is true, it is inherently teleological.

He also says people need a cursory knowledge at least of evolution and even if they want to reject it, they need to understand the basics. I agree. I hope he would agree also that in a society such as ours, you need a basic understanding of the Bible, even if one wants to reject it. While there are plenty of Christians that critique evolution without understanding it, there are plenty of atheists who do the same with the Bible.

Other than that, we have a lot of Graffin’s own personal life and his personal ideas of how to live. It is entertaining, but not relevant for our purposes. Still, this is thus far one of the better atheistic books I have read.

In Christ,
Nick Peters
(And I affirm the virgin birth)

Final Thoughts on the Paulogia article

So what is there left to say? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

The problem many times with so many critiques of the resurrection is that they just say the same things. They treat the whole situation as if they just do some simple thinking, and boom, there’s the answer and no one noticed it for 2,000 years.

Worldviews are rarely like that.

I am in a debate group with Jehovah’s Witnesses and I find it so amazing when they post a verse like it stands alone and think they have disproven the Trinity. Yes. This is a verse that no one in Christian history ever noticed. Lo and behold, the Witnesses came along and showed us the truth that everyone before them overlooked.

Or let’s be fair and use a secular example as well.

Suppose a Christian is arguing with an atheist about evolution and says “Well if people came from apes, then why are there still apes?”

Yes. Absolutely no scientist ever thought about that question at all. With that question, the National Academy of Sciences can now abandon evolution and several dissertations will have to be shredded immediately.

I’m not saying that evolution is false and I’m not saying it’s true. If you read my blog, you know that I do not know and I do not care. I have some questions about it, but I am willing to accept just for the sake of argument. However, if you want to be a Christian and argue against it, God bless you, but know that it will require that you actually seriously study the science and build a strong scientific case.

One statement I often make with atheists is that too many of them live in constant fear of contrary thought. Yes, sadly so do so many Christians. I am always reading at least one book that I disagree with. When I argue with Jehovah’s Witnesses, I encourage them to read some of the commentaries out there on the verses they share. They never do.

I am not saying that atheists should not try to mount a case against the resurrection. If anyone thinks it is false, they should. I am saying that too many atheists I encounter seem to give just-so stories that they think are plausible, but really upon close examination do not hold up. Sometimes they explain one facet of the data and sometimes do that quite well, but they ignore the greater parts.

This is also a problem in our time. Look at our presidential debates. “The economy is in shambles. How do you plan to fix it? You have two minutes. Go.”

This question is hugely multi-faceted. It doesn’t matter which candidate you prefer, no one should be able to give a full answer in two minutes, but we have become that soundbite culture. Arguing against the resurrection will likely take a book-length work to give full credibility to it. I’m not saying blog posts can’t be made, but I would suggest if Paulogia wants to do this again, to try to make a blog post on each point entirely.

This is also why when I go through a book to respond to it, I do it over multiple parts. Arguments are serious and they require deep dives. It’s hard, but someone has to do it.

We’ll see what next week brings!

In Christ,
Nick Peters
(And I affirm the virgin birth)

Book Plunge: Improbable Issues With The God Hypothesis Part 2

What about Intelligent Design? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

In this chapter, Brucker talks about what he calls unintelligent design. Now i have no desire to defend the Intelligent Design movement. I think it can make the mistake of thinking the main answer to the questions lies in science when God is a metaphysical question and you still end up with a universe that is more a machine than anything else. I have nothing to say to Brucker about the science. If you are a supporter of ID and want to jump in the comments and reply, feel free.

Sadly, almost 46% of the American population reject the theory of evolution and support the literal Biblical account described in Genesis. I can attest for the statistic as I’ve discussed the theory with many Christians. Throughout our discourse, their facial expressions seem perplexed – it appears that the truth of evolution is just as impossible to the believer as God may be to the atheist. Perhaps it is the nature of religious faith that is to blame, convincing those willing to believe that questioning and exploration is fruitless and unnecessary. It is quite the opposite actually, and if a monotheist does find the courage to question and explore, I can promise nothing but amazement.

Brucker, J. D.. Improbable: Issues with the God Hypothesis (p. 16). Kindle Edition.

One of the problems with this is something I wrote about recently. A Christian can say, rightly or wrongly, that God provides much meaning and love and grace to their lives. They can have profound experiences and consider themselves a much better person for being a Christian, and in many cases, they could be right. What do they get in exchange for this? To them, a meaningless universe where at least they have right ideas but no pragmatic benefit.

An atheist meanwhile can think that if they accept Christianity, they have to abandon all science. They have to think that they have to believe in a literal flood with kangaroos coming all the way from Australia, a literal six-day creation, and that Hell is literally a blazing furnace. Also, they have to abandon any interest in science, despite everything they see for evolution, rightly or wrongly, they have to think that that is the deceit of Satan!

I can’t imagine why any side isn’t convincing the other.

Yet here’s something else odd. Both of these people have the same opinions in many ways. They both think the Bible is to be read literalistically and if you don’t do that, you’re a liberal. They both think it’s either evolution or Christianity. They both think the exact worse of their ideological opponents.

Now as to how Brucker ends, I highly encourage Christians to question and seek answers. If it turns out evolution is true, well you have to work that into your worldview somehow. If you don’t believe in it and conclude it is false, you can say you’re more informed in what you think. If an atheist studies Christianity and finds it to be true, excellent. If they are convinced it’s false, a position I definitely disagree with, hopefully, they too can at least have more information than they did before.

He can do anything because he is all knowing. “God has his reasons for doing so” is often muttered by his adherents, either out of willful ignorance or because they’ve been so carelessly deluded about the process of the natural world. If that statement were true, his actions must be flawless and without error – for an all knowing and all powerful God can only produce the most favorable outcome. To evaluate his perfection, an objective position ought to be taken.

Brucker, J. D.. Improbable: Issues with the God Hypothesis (p. 16). Kindle Edition.

This claim is a theological claim with no support given. What does it mean for something to be perfect after all? How tall is a perfect man? How much does he weigh? What is his IQ? We could always ask all these questions and we could say “Couldn’t that be more?” In the end, we have a super giant who fixes his meals in the Big Dipper and has an IQ in the trillions.

Also, anything God makes will be necessarily limited not because He is not omnipotent but because there are things even omnipotence can’t do. Can God make a being that has no beginning? No. That’s a contradiction and nonsense and power cannot make contradictions true.

It can also be asked if God will make a world without any flaws. It depends on what a flaw is and what the purpose is. If God knows that people are going to fall in the world He made, then it’s understandable that God would not make a “perfect world”, whatever that would be. The term is too vague.

“Isn’t Heaven perfect?”

It’s good, but never said to be perfect. After all, could it be improved if one more person had freely chosen Christ? Perhaps. Again, perfect is too vague and yet Brucker uses it so easily.

Web sites such as Answers in Genesis propagate the creationist movement through evidence – evidence that has been manipulated in such a way that it confirms a personal agenda. Scientists operate without a predetermined outcome because it could often distort the testing results. Creationism is reinforced through erroneous scripture, followed by misinterpreted scientific understanding. If one wants to believe creationism to be true, they have to believe that a vast majority of all biologists are incoherent, impotent fools because evolution is a vital part of the biological studies.

Brucker, J. D.. Improbable: Issues with the God Hypothesis (p. 17). Kindle Edition.

If Brucker thinks scientists are always pure in how they act and have no agenda, then he is just simply deluded. Scientists are humans just like anyone else and they can want to fudge data just like anyone else, such as to get a grant or for political clout. Piltdown man was a fraud. Why? Someone wanted something. That doesn’t mean evolution is a fraud, but it does mean someone in the scientific world committed a fraud. Today, if you are a scientist who argues against the reigning orthodoxy, like on climate change, you are immediately scandalized.

1. An omnipotent creator would only produce an equally superlative organism

2. All life on Earth isn’t superlative

3. Either the creator is lazy and clumsy and not omnipotent, or God had no part in it

Brucker, J. D.. Improbable: Issues with the God Hypothesis (p. 18). Kindle Edition.

But as said before, these terms are vague. Brucker never defines them. Why should I put my trust in premises without clear terms to them? (Note to Brucker. This is where you do that thing called questioning.)

Monotheists, when confronted with such evidence in regards to our natural composition, claim that the “Fall of Man” is to blame and that our imperfection is a result of this. Of course, such a claim requires reinforcing evidence outside of the Bible, which is their ultimate point of reference while in a debate.

Brucker, J. D.. Improbable: Issues with the God Hypothesis (p. 23). Kindle Edition.

I don’t claim that. I claim our fall was more spiritual and while that has eventual physical consequences, the main consequence is spiritual. We fell away from God. I also have no problem with evidence outside the Bible.

Also, there are debates where the Bible should be our ultimate reference. What about the historical Jesus? There is great information outside the Bible, but even scholars like Bart Ehrman will tell you the best place to go is the biblical data. I would say if I was discussing Islamic doctrine with a Muslim, the Qur’an would be the best place to go.

In quoting the verses describing the consequences of the fall, Brucker says:

Because of this divine command, it is believed that we’ve become mortal beings – and also flawed and imperfect as well – now living within the confines of our cousin organisms. Mind you; this, however, hadn’t kept Adam from living 930 years or Moses from living 120 years, of course.

Brucker, J. D.. Improbable: Issues with the God Hypothesis (p. 23). Kindle Edition.

Hate to disappoint you Brucker, but I happen to think man was created mortal. If he was immortal, there would be no need for a tree of life. I also do understand there are different ways of reading the genealogies in Genesis 5. Some scholars think it goes from a base 6 instead of our base 10 which gives a quite different number. A book like this goes into that.

So what about all his critiques of ID that I didn’t cover?

Don’t care.

If you care, by all means answer them, but my arguments for theism don’t rely on that and looking at the statements that are in my area, I find Brucker following the exact same mindset. I don’t see evidence he has done the questioning in reading the best scholarship on the other side. He just holds to fundamentalism still.

In Christ,
Nick Peters
(And I affirm the virgin birth)

 

 

Book Plunge: Improbable Issues With The God Hypothesis Part 1

So does Brucker have a case? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

I get lists of discount Kindle books and when I saw one about improbable issues with the God Hypothesis, I definitely decided to buy that one. I started it just recently and while he seems to target monotheism more than just Christianity, too often, it’s the exact same issues still. How does the first chapter go?

Pretty much anything you want to know about evolution. So what is there in the chapter to comment on?

The metaphysical explanations described by those religious institutions directly conflict with what has been discovered regarding our past, also promoting the idea that we are special; a species set apart from the rest of the living creatures by an all loving and giving God.

Brucker, J. D.. Improbable: Issues with the God Hypothesis . Kindle Edition.

For the first, I am not told what metaphysical explanations these are nor how they conflict with our past. This also cannot be answered by science since science deals with the physical and not the metaphysical. It can provide data for metaphysics, but it is not itself metaphysics. For the second, even if true, so what? How does that show it false?

Apologists and modern theologians have explained that Genesis may be more of an allegorical story, telling the tale of how selfish ways have the potential to disrupt the fabric of faith.

Brucker, J. D.. Improbable: Issues with the God Hypothesis . Kindle Edition.

Unfortunately, I am not told who these apologists and modern theologians are. Brucker has the problem many atheists have of not naming who they are interacting with.

It is said that God loves all humans and wishes nothing more than for us to worship him, leaving one suitable counter: “If God does, in fact, want all of this, why would he mislead many by allowing the intelligent to identify all that conflicts with his very existence?”

Brucker, J. D.. Improbable: Issues with the God Hypothesis . Kindle Edition.

It’s nice to know that “the intelligent” all speak with one voice on this. None of those “intelligent” could obviously include theists. Unfortunately for the atheist community, from what I see online, a lot of the dumb also fall into their numbers. Sadly, that’s true of Christians as well. The conclusion then? How you view the God question is not a measure of your intelligence.

As those of yesteryear, a simple answer is believed by theists who blindly accept the teachings of their most beloved priests, pastors, rabbis, or imams. The highly-regarded books of myth and fiction give them all the information they need to conclude simplicity is to blame for complexity. A much different explanation with a more definitive answer can be found within the very cells, of which one’s body is composed.

Brucker, J. D.. Improbable: Issues with the God Hypothesis (p. 6). Kindle Edition.

And again, blind belief rests on both sides. For instance, I saw today when reading that later on, Brucker will use the 41,000 denominations myth. The number always varies and no one goes and checks the source to see what is meant. It’s just shared blindly. I will answer it when I get there, but ultimately, there are blind followers on both sides. How many atheists immediately shared things like Zeitgeist or jumped on board of the idea that Jesus had a wife?

Those who propagate the idea of intelligent design do so without a smidgen of reason-based inquiry. If they had done so efficiently, they would not have failed to recognize the physical – modern and pre-modern – evidence that would suggest that if a God had actually brought about all living creatures, his doing so would portray a plethora of care, direction, and kindness; whereas on the contrary it portrays an ignorant, callous, and careless creator.

Brucker, J. D.. Improbable: Issues with the God Hypothesis (pp. 12-14). Kindle Edition.

I am not here to defend the ID community. I really don’t care. That being said, if someone thinks they don’t have a smidgen of reason-based inquiry, they are wrong. You can disagree with them. You can say they are wrong. You can do all of that, but they are attempting at least to answer questions and use reason.

Now if someone like Brucker came along he could say “But in all of this, you didn’t say a thing about evolution.”

That’s because I don’t care.

Evolution is a non-issue to me and I have regularly said that Christians and atheists who think it’s a death knell for Christianity don’t understand evolution, Christianity, or both. As a Thomist, it doesn’t affect my arguments for God. As someone who holds to Walton’s interpretation, it doesn’t affect my reading of Genesis. From a historical perspective, it doesn’t affect my trust in the resurrection of Jesus. If anyone has more to lose here, it’s the atheist since they often base their atheism on evolution.

So hopefully the next chapter will give us something more to work with.

In Christ,
Nick Peters
(And I affirm the virgin birth)

Christianity and Modern Gods

What are the gods we deal with today? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

I am reading through the church fathers, among other things, and something I am noticing with Tertullian who I am on now is that he has a vast array of knowledge about the gods of the Roman society he lives in. I grew up reading Greek mythology which was claimed by the Romans, but there is still a lot I don’t know about it. Tertullian is familiar with the ins and the outs of the great stories in addition to being familiar with the biblical topics he knows about and the history of Christianity and the Roman Empire.

Nowadays, most people do not believe in those gods. Many people would consider themselves secularists and even many Christians are largely secular in their thinking. That does not mean we are not without gods. Not by a long shot. We have several gods today and these are gods Christians need to know about as well to interact with worshippers of these gods, as there are plenty of such worshippers.

So what are they?

Let’s start with sex. Yes. We all know about sex. A goes into B and sometimes a baby can result. We all know how it works, but what about what it is. We have plenty of debates on this topic. What is the ultimate purpose of sex? Is it something reserved for marriage? Is it to be between a man and a woman?

Then this gets into our personal identity. What is orientation? Is there such a thing? Is there a difference between sex and gender? Is this something that is assigned at birth or is it something immutable that cannot be changed? On one level, we can say the question “What is a woman?” is simple, but on the other, it is something quite deep that we need to get more to an answer on.

Christians definitely need to have a message here. After all, if we aren’t sharing our views on this with our children, the world is and the world will speak loudly. If we do believe sex is reserved for a man and a woman in marriage, how can we tell children this is a great gift while at the same time saying it needs to be reserved for that state? (Something even difficult for we adults who are single again.)

Another god is money. For this, Christians need to study economics. Many of the debates we have in this country are because people are ignorant of economics. We think with our hearts alone and think “If our intentions are good, the results will follow.” Not at all. I am not saying to avoid compassion, but I am saying that to see if a policy works, you don’t ask “How compassionate is it?” but rather “How effective is it?”

Capitalism is often seen as encouraging greed. Is it? Marxism is seen as caring for the poor. Is it? Why did we go to war with Marxism so much in our history? Is Marxism necessarily linked with atheism? Were the early Christians socialist?

As for caring for the poor, what is the best way to help people who are poor? What method has the best results? How should individual Christians care for the poor? Is it wrong for you to buy something really nice for yourself when there are poor people in the world?

Power is another one and this gets into politics. This is definitely here when an election year is going on. Christians need to learn how their government works. Can we tell the three branches of the American government? What is the Constitution? The Bill of Rights? The Declaration of Independence?

How much power should the government have? Should the citizenry be able to have guns and if so, are there any limitations to that? What should we prohibit? What should we permit? What should we promote? What role do passages like Romans 13 play?

What about science? This seems to be the reigning authority today. What is science? Is science necessarily materialistic? Can it answer the God question? Can it answer questions of good and evil? Is it the only way to know anything?

What should we accept in science and what should we not? Is evolution true? If it is, what does this say about our beliefs on Scripture, inerrancy, the existing of God, and the resurrection of Jesus? Can you be a faithful Christian and accept evolution? Can you be a good scientist and reject evolution?

What about modern issues as well like climate change? Is the earth’s climate changing? If so, is that something that would happen anyway or is man responsible? Is there anything that can be done about it either way? What about our response to Covid? What did we get right? What did we get wrong? Can we trust the science or are we even more skeptical?

Christians interacting in our culture need some knowledge on all of this. In addition definitely understand other gods if you are interacting with other systems. We need Christians who understand cults, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, atheism and any other belief system out there.

In all of this, yes, we need to know our Bibles and our history and what we believe and why, but we are interacting with people who speak of other gods. Like good missionaries, we need to know what those other gods are and how to address them. Christians throughout history have had something to say about more than just Christianity. We need to do the same to be effective witnesses in our culture.

In Christ,
Nick Peters
(And I affirm the virgin birth)

The Problem With Evolutionary Debates

Do both sides make a mistake in the debate? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

In a Facebook group I’m a part of, someone who is an atheist posted something about evolution with an idea of evolution vs. Christianity. I replied saying that I am an evolutionary agnostic. I don’t know and I don’t care. It doesn’t affect my reading of Genesis, my view of inerrancy, my arguments for God, or my case for the resurrection.

This is not to say I don’t have some questions. I definitely do. The biggest one I have is how it is that men and women raised independently sexual reproductive systems that work together interdependently. The thing is, I don’t present this as a defeater because I am sure research has been done and I have not taken the time to look into it because in the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t matter to me.

So in reply to this post that was made, I state I am an agnostic and someone who I suspect is a Christian comes and asks me questions about how to explain XYZ if evolution is true. These could have been basic questions. I said I’m not arguing for it, but I did ask the question that I normally ask. What was the last book you read defending evolution? The answer was none, just watching debates.

Friends. I try to be consistent. Reading contrary thought is important to argue a position.

All this does it leave me thinking about similar mistakes internet atheists and a lot of Christians make when arguing this topic.

First, a reality, both sides tend to accept basic ideas in each belief system. Your average Christian has no problem going to a doctor, flying on a plane, driving a car, using electricity, etc. Insofar as these are not controversial, this is not an issue.

Meanwhile, your average atheist will accept some things about Christianity. Many will accept that there was a historical Jesus. (Although there are far too many who are mythicists.) Many will see a lot of good in a lot of the ethical teachings of Christians. They will tend to disagree on sexual matters, but they are likely to accept things like giving to the poor, loving your neighbor as yourself, not stealing or lying or murdering, etc.

The problem is when you make it either-or. You have to accept everything or you accept nothing. You have to choose which side you are on. Are you on the side of Christianity or of science.

Which buys into the idea that these are automatically irreconcilable. There are a number of devout Christians who are scientists. Historically, there has been no split between the two.

But now let’s look at your average Christian in the pew. For them, Christianity is a great blessing in their lives. They have experiences of wonder and love that rightly or wrongly, they think come from God. They have a strong ethical system, a hope of heaven someday, and a loving community. They think Christianity just explains the world. At the same time, they have no problem with the basic science activities I mentioned above.

Now the atheist comes to them and says “You are not rational if you accept all of that and you have to accept this viewpoint that you don’t understand and reject everything that is dear to you.” Add in also that in the grand scheme of things, this belief that man evolved will not really make much difference to this person likely in their day-to-day life. Do you really think a Christian will go for that? The atheist really needs to listen to the Christian on why their Christianity matters. Keep in mind, for the sake of argument, the Christian could be totally wrong in what they think, but it is still what they think.

Richard Dawkins and the rest of the new atheists often make this mistake. When Richard Dawkins writes on science as science, it is spellbinding. Even if you disagree with him, you can see the wonder he has in what he’s describing. Yet when he talks about something related to Christianity, he is speaking largely from ignorance and anyone who has a clue on Christianity rejects it. It gives a Christian a pass to say “Well, if he’s this ignorant on Christianity and speaking like he’s an authority, why should I trust him on science?” Again, Dawkins could be totally right on science, but he’s damaging his reputation when he posts on things he doesn’t understand.

Honestly, if Dawkins wanted to promote science, the best thing he could do would be to just write about science. When he makes it science vs. Christianity, he’s less likely to reach people. If someone comes in who is a Christian to the world of science and does good scientific work, why should Dawkins care if they’re a Christian or not as long as they’re producing good material?

If an atheist wants to argue against Christianity, what they really need to do is read Christians who are informed talking about what they believe and why. Read multiple views on Genesis. Read about cases for theism and the resurrection of Jesus.

Now it sounds like I’ve been hard on the atheist, but the Christian isn’t entirely innocent in this. If a Christian goes to the scientist and says “You must reject XYZ in order to be a Christian” and the scientist is convinced that XYZ is a well-established fact about the world, then we have a problem. If the Christian says, “You must accept that Scripture says this about the world” and the atheist doesn’t think that claim about the world is true, he is likely to tie that in to theism and the resurrection of Jesus. Saint Augustine said this centuries ago and yet it sounds like it could have been written today:

“Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience.

“Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although “they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion [1 Timothy 1.7].” (The Literal Meaning of Genesis, Book 1 Chapter 19 Paragraph 39)

If a Christian then argues this way, he’s not going to present a case that the atheist will accept. It’s the same problem again. If you make it the Bible vs science to an atheist, he will choose science every time, and who can blame him?

Am I forbidding a Christian from arguing against evolution? Not at all. It’s not what I do, but if you want to do it, it must not be the Bible vs. science as that just feeds the idea that there is a war between the two. If evolution is to fall, let it fall because it is somehow shown to be bad science. (It is not my call if it is or not or will be or not.) I suspect most atheists would agree with this. If evolution can be demonstrated to be bad science, then it is to be rejected.

If you want to make a case for Christianity, then go with a claim for theism and then the resurrection of Jesus and get in everything else after that. If you think a person has a less robust form of Christianity, such as rejecting inerrancy or what you think is a false view of Genesis, but they hold to essential Christian doctrine like the resurrection of Jesus, the Trinity, etc. then rejoice. They believe the essential matters.

So then, if you want to argue against evolution, then you need to read the best evolutionary scientists you can and learn their position and do the work to show why you think it is scientifically flawed. If you are not willing to do this, then don’t argue it. There is nothing wrong with asking questions, but treating them like defeaters is a problem.

Again, atheists and Christians both make this mistake and it sadly ends with ignorance of both science and Christianity. Let’s do better.

In Christ,
Nick Peters
(And I affirm the virgin birth)