Book Plunge: Beyond the Salvation Wars: Chapter 6 Part 4

Isn’t Romans 9 proof of election? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

I don’t really do Calvinist debates anymore. I just find them uninteresting. I do know that if you do them, you will inevitably be taken to Romans 9. This chapter is about election. Right? Let’s see what Bates has to say about it.

A similar analysis to the one just carried out for Ephesians 1: 3– 14 could be undertaken for all purported examples of individual election unto final salvation in Scripture. That is, excluding the Son, there is not a single unambiguous example where God is said to have predestined an individual to eternal life or eternal damnation before they were born. Nary a one. Jacob? Esau? Pharaoh? Judas? Paul himself? Nope. All of these are chosen in advance by God for specific vocational purposes, but none are described as having been chosen before their own births— let alone before creation— for eternal life or condemnation. That is, God elects or chooses specific individuals for long-term or short-term tasks that relate to his overarching plans, but Scripture does not describe any person as singularly elect for final salvation.

Matthew W. Bates. Beyond the Salvation Wars (Kindle Locations 2770-2776). Kindle Edition.

Bates says Paul himself didn’t think he could take his salvation easy. In 1 Cor. 9, Paul talks about how he treats himself so that he himself will not be disqualified, and yet Paul has described a calling of his own. Bates also has another example of this not being for salvation, namely Esau.

Doesn’t the text say Esau was hated? Yes, but it’s in Malachi and it refers to the nations. God could choose only one nation. Esau in the narrative of Genesis is blessed abundantly still. Esau was chosen to be the one to serve Jacob, not the other way around.

What about Pharaoh? God knows in the text that Pharaoh will harden his heart against Him, but the first hardening takes place by Pharaoh himself. After enough time, God just, as I heard even a Calvinist say once, greases the wheels in the way the cart is already going. What was Pharaoh chosen for? Not to be passed over for salvation, but to display God’s glory through the world. The text of Romans says nothing about Pharaoh’s salvation. (Although considering the story in Exodus, it’s a pretty safe bet.)

What about the image of the potter? In this case, it is still vocational. Even vessels for wrath could still be reshaped and made into something more useful. Paul in this whole section is arguing for the well-being of Israel. Would it not be fitting to say that Israel has incurred God’s wrath for now, but in the end, they will be the recipients of salvation?

In conclusion, Bates sees nothing in the text about individual salvation. This is all about corporate identities and how one sees oneself in alignment with the group of the time. As someone who is not a Calvinist myself, I find that there is much to commend here and is definitely worthy of further research.

Next time, we will look at what he has to say about free-will in salvation.

In Christ,
Nick Peters
(And I affirm the virgin birth)

Deeper Waters Podcast 8/2/2014: Clay Jones

What’s coming up on the next episode of the Deeper Waters Podcast? Let’s talk about it on Deeper Waters.

EEEEEEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLL! Evil is a favorite playing card of many an atheist on the internet as well as prominent atheists in public debate. If there is a God, why is there so much evil in the world? In fact, many times, isn’t God the cause of all this evil in the world?

Of course, this is a serious objection for many to theism and in order to help address it, why not talk to a serious authority on the issue? That’s why I’m having Dr. Clay Jones of BIOLA come on my show this Saturday to talk about the problem of evil.

So who is Clay Jones?

cbj

According to his bio:

Clay Jones holds a doctor of ministry degree from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and is an associate professor in the Master of Arts in Christian Apologetics Program at Biola University. Formerly, Clay hosted Contend for Truth, a nationally syndicated call-in, talk-radio program where he debated professors, radio talk show hosts, cultists, religious leaders, and representatives from animal rights, abortion rights, gay rights, and atheist organizations. Clay was the CEO of Simon Greenleaf University (now Trinity Law and Graduate Schools) and was on the pastoral staff of two large churches. Clay is a contributing writer to the Christian Research Journal and specializes in issues related to why God allows evil. You can read his blog at clayjones.net and find him on Facebook.

So what are we going to be talking about when it comes to the problem of evil?

There will be four parts to this. The first one is why is it that we suffer for the sin of Adam. Why is it that because one man and woman ate a piece of fruit so long long ago that the rest of us have to suffer for it today? How can it be that a good God would allow this? Why put us in a situation where already we’re in a deficit?

Second, what about the nature of humankind. What does it mean to be a human and what difference does this make to the problem of evil? Why is it that we see human beings as moral agents but we don’t tend to view animals in the same light?

Third, free-will. This often comes up in these debates but what about the nature of free-will. Does it make a difference? Why should God even allow free-will if it will lead to all this evil? Could God not have created a world where we would be free but there will not be all this evil?

Finally, what about the after-death? Does Heaven play any role whatsoever in what we are experiencing in this life? What about the fact that some people will not make it to Heaven in fact?

All of these are important aspects of dealing with the problem of evil so if this is a question that interests you, be listening to the Deeper Waters Podcast this Saturday, and please leave a positive review of the show on ITunes! I would greatly appreciate it!

In Christ,
Nick Peters