Tag: Norm Geisler

John’s Changed Day?

If John changed the day that Jesus was crucified on, does this count as a denial of Inerrancy? Let’s find out as we dive into Deeper Waters.

Over on Geisler’s site under the article about how the list is growing of Licona’s denial of Inerrancy, we have the following:

Now it has come to our attention that in a debate with Bart Erhman at Southern Evangelical Seminary in the Spring of 2009 that Licona asserted concerning the day Jesus was crucified that: “I think that John probably altered the day in order for a theological—to make a theological point there. But that does not mean that Jesus wasn’t crucified.” However, it does mean that the Licona believes that text is in error! This is a flat denial of the inerrancy of Scripture!

What are those last two lines?

“However, it does mean that the Licona believes that text is in error! This is a flat denial of the inerrancy of Scripture!”

Does it really?

To begin with, let’s go to the start. What does Licona say? He says that he believed John changed the date. If John changed the date, then that means that he knew what the date was. Licona then says that he believes John changed the date to make a theological point.

Note also then that that means John expects us to recognize the changed date.

If that is the case, then is John knowingly writing error?

No.

Let us consider another example in the gospel of John in comparison to some others. We have in John 2 the scene where Jesus raises a ruckus in the temple. In all the other gospels, this takes place in the Passion week. In this gospel, it takes place at the beginning.

“But Nick! Could it be that it happened twice as some think?”

Could be, but it could just be that John is changing chronology to make a point.

Is that example not good enough? Let’s go to another one then. How about the order of the temptations of Jesus? It would be interesting to see what Geisler has to say about this.

Fortunately, I don’t have to look that far. He and Thomas Howe together wrote a book on biblical contradictions and this is one of the verses they dealt with. (Interestingly, their reference to the question of John only addresses the point of being in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights. It doesn’t address John’s timing.) On page 329 of “When Critics Ask” we read the following:

It may be that Matthew describes these temptations chronologically while Luke lists them climatically, that is, topically. This may be to express the climax he desired to emphasize. Matthew 4:5 begins with the word “then” while verse 8 begins with the word “again.” In Greek, these words suggest a more sequential order of the events. In Luke’s account, however, verses 5 and 9 each begin with a simple “and” (See NASB). The Greek in the case of Luke’s account does not necessarily indicate a sequential order of events. Furthermore, there is no disagreement on the fact that these temptations actually happened.

Wow. So it turns out that it could be the case that for topical reasons, the order of the event was changed, but there’s no disagreement that these temptations happened, and one is still in line with Inerrancy.

Meanwhile, Licona says that for topical reasons, namely a theological point, the known date was changed, but there is no disagreement he was crucified, and this is not in line with Inerrancy?

Now someone will say “But isn’t it obvious that one does not do that when writing history?!”

Well, perhaps if you’re a 21st century American, but this is the great danger with Geisler’s approach. Geisler does not want the cultural context to be part of the interpretation of the passage. What does that mean then? The text might as well have been written in a vacuum, but you can be sure there will be a cultural context that the text is read in, and that is Geisler’s own cultural context.

The great mistake is to assume that the culture of the Bible and the way writings were written was just like ours. It wasn’t. Why should we give our culture precedence anyway? Why not 5th century Japan? Why not 12th century China? Why not 15th century France? Why not 10th century England? Why think the biblical culture was like any culture?

By wanting to avoid culture, one inevitably plugs in their own culture as if something was written without having any input from the surrounding culture, despite the use of words, idioms, and other such things that would been understood by the culture.

This is a view I call Americentrism. It is the belief that everything had in mind a 21st century American audience who thinks like we do and since we tend to be literalists, then the text ought to always be taken literally. Since we write history in a straight chronology, the ancients had to do the same.

For all this talk on literal readings however, literal does not mean what it is assumed to mean but rather it refers to taking it the way the author intended to take it. One can be sure that were the Reformers here today, they would be the ones arguing against Geisler. That does not mean they’d agree with Licona necessarily, but they would say that he needs to be shown to make his case on what the Bible teaches instead of dismissed out of hand.

So if we look at that culture and we find that history did not have to be chronological, we will find no problem. If John changed the date, then we can ask “Why?” Well he changed the date so that Jesus being crucified on Passover would be a theme. “Why that? Passover is the time we offer up a lamb without blemish to celebrate our freedom from slavery…..oh!”

There is no disagreement that this is what the gospel writers thought about Jesus. Now does that mean I entirely agree with Licona’s perspective? Not yet. I haven’t studied the issue enough to form a certain judgment.

I can also assure anyone that if Licona receives a better interpretation that fits the data, he will be one who can happily accept it. The point I wish to establish is that this does not mean that one is denying Inerrancy since this is a known change and the audience would know that John had set it at this date not to give a chronological account, but to give a thematic approach.

Perhaps some people out there need to take off the Americentric glasses.

In Christ,
Nick Peters

A Response to Paul

Hello everyone and welcome back to Deeper Waters where we are diving into the ocean of truth. Tonight, I’m going to continue our look at the Inerrancy debate with a personal appeal from my friend Paul and what he fears is going on in this matter. For that, let me give a little background.

Paul and I met in 2001 at Johnson Bible College. I was a student there and in my Western Civilization class had raised my hand to speak out against JEPD theory and in the midst of that quoted Ravi Zacharias. This caught Paul’s eye who was in that class and he came up to me and asked me if I knew about the Apologetics Conference and about SES.

You mean you can go to school for this? There’s a conference about this?

I had no idea and I was sold from that point on. That year, I went to my first apologetics conference with him and a couple of other guys. I think I ended up spending around $400 in the book store.

Paul graduated before I and went on to SES. I soon followed. When my roommate and I moved in, he was the one who came over and helped us, seeing as we didn’t know anyone else in town. When he left to get a job in another state as a youth minister, he simply asked that SES take care of me.

Recently also, Paul found out that one of his sons has autism, which I thought was an interesting turn of events seeing as my wife and I are both Aspies, and Paul has begun doing more study on the topic of autism. Allie and I have been a great resource for him.

And to his credit, Paul is the only one I know who supports Geisler, but seems willing to reach out. I hope something good comes of that. Unfortunately, I have seen a number of friends cut me off because I do not support Geisler and I am arguing against his claims. While on Facebook thus far, I have not blocked anyone over this, but I have been blocked.

As for those who have done such to me, my wife and I still pray for God’s blessing on them everyday, and in a number of ways I have a great concern for them.

Having given a good introduction, now I will look at what Paul says.

I am a Norman Geisler fan. He is a godly man who has worked tirelessly for more than half a century. He is a man of integrity and a defender of the faith.

Probably a year ago, I would have said the same thing. However, from what I have seen in the past few months, I could no longer say any of this. I have talked to others who have had a similar problem with Geisler and too many people who I think could not just have a grudge. I have heard the people I consider to be some of the kindest in the world speak out on the nature of Geisler and have heard about the damage that has been done elsewhere, this from persons I trust highly.

As for Geisler being a defender of the faith, unfortunately it seems to also be more focused on his personal view on how the faith should be. When Mike told me his interpretation of Matthew 27 even before the book came out, I considered it an interesting idea worthy of further study. Never once would I have thought it was a denial of Inerrancy.

Here’s a simple way to look at it. Mike believes what he believes because he believes that is what the text actually teaches. How is it that he can be denying Inerrancy when he’s just saying “I want to believe what it is that I see the Bible teaching?” It seems the reply is “No. You must see what we say the Bible is teaching.”

If you want to know why Mike has not changed his mind, it’s for a simple reason. The evidence is not convincing. This is a man who got a book on the sighting of comets in the ancient world and having all of them catalogued just to better understand the phenomena described in the text. His reading of Greco-Roman biographies was to further understand the way the gospels were written.

Some out there unfortunately seem to panic at the thought of something outside of the text influencing how we read the text. Unfortunately, there is something that does that for all of us. It’s our surrounding culture. For instance, I can go to you and say a sentence and you can wonder what I’m talking about. I can then go to a really good friend and say the same thing to have him bust out laughing. Why? He knows a surrounding context to the text that you don’t know.

Lately, I’ve been reading some of the material of Ken Bailey. I find it fascinating the way he talks about how an understanding of Middle Eastern culture can help us with the text. The text was written in that climate and there was no need to explain the ins and outs of that culture to the listeners. They knew it already. They lived it. However, for those who do not, we can fail to notice several clues that we would not know about by studying the culture.

Let’s consider what’s called the parable of the Prodigal Son. Do we see anything in the Bible that says that in the ancient world, it was shameful for a man to run? No. However, it was, and then when we see the father running to meet the son, we understand that this father is breaching social etiquette out of extreme love for his son.

We get that from the surrounding culture. Archaeology is another example of this seeing as archaeological findings have helped us understand Bible passages. For instance, why is Daniel offered the third-highest position in the kingdom in Daniel 5? Well now we know. Archaeology has shown that Bel didn’t have it to give to Daniel. He was a co-regent at the time and so Daniel would have had the highest position Daniel could offer.

This is not to deny that the basic message of the Bible can be understood without help from the outside culture, but it is to say let’s get past the allergy idea of using information outside the text to teach us what the text means. In fact, if any of you have code messages that you use with your spouse, you should know about this.

I am a Mike Licona fan. I appreciate his eagerness to defend the Christian faith and his extensive research on the resurrection. Although I did not have the opportunity to study under him, his students speak very highly of him.

Keep this in mind everyone. Mike is defending the resurrection. Remember that? It’s the central doctrine of the Christian faith. Mike has written the best tour de force out there on the topic, as even said at SBL with N.T. Wright present. That is a strong position of orthodoxy, and yet so many people seem willing to say that Mike is trying to discount the supernatural or that he’s wanting to water down the gospel or that he thinks we can’t trust the Bible.

Yes. I have seen each of these said.

The Geisler-Licona debate has been a hot topic in the blogosphere lately. Nick Peters has devoted a number of discussions on this issue. I am a Nick Peters fan. I met Nick at Johnson University over a decade ago. He is a brilliant young man who will no doubt play an influential role in Christian apologetics. He and his wife Allie have also been very encouraging to our family.

I quote this only to say that Paul sees me as a friend. For those in the Geisler camp who might want to discount me due to my relation with Mike, I think Paul would say “Don’t do it. If he argues for a position, it is because he believes it.”

I am also a Christian apologetics fan. I am a Jesus fan. As such, it is difficult to watch the Geisler-Licona debate continue much longer. I would like to see Geisler and Licona continue to discuss the issue, as I believe it is an important topic. I’m not convinced either Geisler or Licona is guilty of any wrongdoing regarding the presentation of the arguments. Both men are standing firm to a position for which they have great conviction. This is honorable.

I am convinced however that Geisler is guilty not just in how he presented his arguments, but in what he’s done outside of this.

Here is what Geisler has done in the issue.

He has issued a petition behind the scenes for people to vote on about whether Mike is violating Inerrancy or not.

He has been instrumental in causing Mike to lose a job twice, including personally contacting people to warn them about Mike.

He has caused further financial loss to Mike by getting him uninvited from speaking engagements and has done the same to two supporters, Paul Copan and Gary Habermas.

As Max Andrews has demonstrated, he has misrepresented Mike’s position as well.

He has refused to meet with a scholarly conclave to discuss the idea.

His actions have caused great psychological stress to the families involved.

He’s also played a heavy hand at SES which he left and now wishes to use, just as is the case with ETS.

He has caused a number of people to say they don’t want to join ETS now because they don’t want to be a victim.

He has caused us to be a topic of derision by atheists on the internet who are now saying that Christian scholars can’t be objective because they must toe the line.

This is just a start in fact. I think before too long, we’ll be seeing more results from what has happened.

Now let’s look at what Mike has done.

Mike has offered to meet Geisler to discuss the matter with witnesses. This was not accepted.

Mike gave a paper at EPS to defend his views. Geisler called what he did unscholarly.

Mike went on some podcasts to share his views. Geisler condemned this despite open letters. What’s the big deal however in Mike speaking on an issue when his views are already public and some shows want to know what is going on?

You can hardly find anything posted against Geisler by Mike on Geisler’s Facebook page. Compare this to Geisler’s page. More than half of the most recent posts by Geisler of the most recent 20 have been statements concerning Mike.

I just went to Mike’s Facebook page even. I clicked on News. What did I find about Geisler on there? Absolutely nothing. I then clicked “Articles” and found the EPS paper. Had I not been looking for it, I would not have known about it from the home page.

Meanwhile, I go to Geisler’s page. What do I see? Advertisements about his book “Defending Inerrancy” and to the right of that, an article by Thomas Howe on Licona’s denial of Inerrancy and an outpouring of support for Geisler after the “Pro Licona Attack.” I also find a link to Licona info with twelve articles on it. You’d think Mike Licona was the greatest threat to the Christian faith!

Someone can say “Well Mike hasn’t condemned the attack cartoon!”

Well seriously, why should he?

It’s amazing that this is considered an attack on Geisler when in fact, Mike has been the one who’s suffered repeatedly. Then Geisler gets a little pressure applied to him and expects Mike to condemn the cartoon based on his say-so. Sorry, but the cartoon was quite accurate in what it depicted. JPH documented all the events that he spoke about in that and the responses have been ludicrous. Some people actually think we’re encouraging physical attack on Geisler?

It’s amazing that no one blinked with what Geisler was doing to Mike and is still doing, but now that a cartoon has come out, everyone is speaking about something being offensive.

And I thought Christians were better than the tolerance crowd.

And frankly, if some people can’t take a cartoon, I wonder how they’ll handle it when real persecution shows up. It would benefit Geisler to realize that the reason evangelicals are laughing is that they think the depiction of it is quite accurate. Geisler can say it isn’t, but he needs to tell the rest of the world why it isn’t and stop and consider why so many do think that it is. Could they be seeing any evidence of this?

What concerns me the most is what has recently occurred in the blogosphere. It is heartbreaking to read some of the posts by my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Many of these posts originate from various sites devoted to apologetics. These sites are filled with so many quality discussions on a wide range of topics. However, the language in this debate has become brutal. This needs to end. Of course, I realize that my plea may be met with the same sort of harsh criticism directed towards me for making this request. If so, it’s a favor I won’t return.

Here, I am concerned that there is worry about brutal language but not brutal actions. Take a look again at all that Geisler has done to Mike and we’re supposed to say nothing, but when it comes to language that could hurt Geisler, we are to stop it immediately?

In fact, I don’t think much of what has been said has been severe. For instance, I do not support the action of someone who just said “Shut up already, you old pig.” Do I wish Geisler would be quiet about this issue and drop it? Yes. Do I understand the sentiments that were expressed? Yes. However, we need to also make our statements with arguments. Those who saw the cartoon often talk about it being disrespectful, but the oddity is they never seem to explain how it is.

I’m not opposed to the use of strong language, but I am opposed to it when there is no argument backing it. In fact, this time for me has been a time in the study of forgiveness. What does it mean to show to my family around me how someone handles a tough challenge? How does one deal with what seems like personal betrayal? How do you have an attitude of forgiveness in case someone repents? How do you learn to not hold a grudge.

What I am most concerned with what I see in the blogosphere is unthinking. Now someone has complained that the Geisler video made some people look like drones. In all honesty, when I go to the Geisler Facebook page, a lot of people do a really good job of demonstrating that. For some, it’s simply the case of “Geisler has spoken. The case is closed.”

I honestly wonder if some might take the Mormon hymn of “Praise to the Man” and simply change it from Joseph Smith to Geisler.

In fact, I have a difficulty in some ways with Paul saying he is my fan. I often realize the position that I hold and a lot of people will take what I say very seriously and think “I want you to really study what I tell you.” I often do this trick at work where if someone tells me their birthday, I can tell them what day of the week they were born on. So many customers upon seeing this say “I believe you!” I don’t like that. I want them to check me first. Make sure what I’m saying is true instead of just being willing to believe me immediately.

I fear when I go to Geisler’s page, I see a lot of “yes men.” These are the ones that think “Well Geisler said this in response and that settles the issue.” That is not a position that should be given to any man save Jesus Christ. It should not be given to Geisler. It should not be given to Mike. It should not be given to me. I understand Paul is not doing this with either of us, but are we in danger of following another man instead of Jesus? Do we not remember 1 Corinthians? “I follow Paul. I follow Apollos. I follow Cephas.” It should be for all of us “I follow Christ.” Oh we’d all say we do, but are we following Christ but necessarily through the lens of a mortal man?

Here is my plea to my brothers and sisters in the Christian blogosphere – stop the personal attacks. If you would like to discuss the subject of inerrancy, please continue to do so. However, we must not tolerate the personal attacks. The “[so and so] started it first” argument didn’t work for me in first grade, nor should it be a valid excuse now. Just as I would not tolerate personal attacks against any of you, I can’t tolerate personal attacks against either Geisler or Licona. I urge you to commit to speaking only against a position not a person in this matter.

The reason there is speaking against Geisler in this matter is because he has moved this beyond the arguments by targeting Mike and his family financially. If we want the personal attacks to end, then Geisler needs to also stop playing the role of the bully, which he is now.

If we are to condemn “personal attacks” should we not condemn the cutting off of a man’s income and the targeting of his friends who support him? Paul Copan has said there are some evangelical scholars who want to speak out, but don’t for fear of being the next target. Why should anyone hold this power in the church today? If there is one thing that definitely needs to be done, it is that the evangelical community forms a union in such a way that no one person can have as much influence as this.

When I’ve seen all that Mike has gone through and the effects of that, and there are things we know about happening that we haven’t even shared, to say that a cartoon is offensive rings hollow. In fact, Geisler omits names to protect from annoyance. Yes. That’s right everyone. Mike and friends have had their reputation called into question, been uninvited from conferences, and Mike has suffered loss of income.

Geisler’s followers are in danger of being “annoyed” supposedly.

Keep in mind also, the list of scholars that stood in favor of Mike has been taken down in several places because some of those scholars have been targeted now and some realized their jobs were on the line. There were some who weren’t included to begin with for fear they’d lose their jobs.

Losing income vs. “being annoyed.”

Obvious one-to-one parallel there.

If there are any wrongs that need to be made right between Geisler and Licona, allow them to work it out. If we continue to stir things up in the blogosphere, we can be sure the tone will only get worse. It will distract others from a much more important Message.

It’s been tried, and it has not happened. Mike wants to meet, but only with witnesses. Who can blame him? (Well, apparently some in the Geisler camp can) Why do some of us write? Not to convince Geisler. We’re sure he won’t be. It’s the same reason William Lane Craig debates atheists. It is not to convince the atheist, but to convince the audience.

If I were to convince the audience here of anything, it would not be first off that my father-in-law is not violating Inerrancy. In fact, if you want to think that he is, that’s wrong entirely, but at that level, I’m not really going to complain. I could just see you as a hyper-fundamentalist type, but oh well. I see those often.

I would say instead to take a stand against bullying like this. Look at what I have said has happened to Mike and what could happen to anyone in the evangelical community who does not toe the line. Is this the way we want evangelicalism to continue? Do we want inquisitions like this to happen? We can settle the matter on Inerrancy later of course, but must it involve damaging the well-being of one in the body who has provided an outstanding service to the Christian community in giving a tour de force on the resurrection?

Now if you think Mike has been nasty himself, show where. I have pointed out my qualms with what Geisler has done, but I fear many are like a commenter on my blog here who saw nothing wrong with any of that, and if you are one of those, then I can just pray for you.

I agree it’s time to end, and I think it’s time for some to stand up and say wrong actions are wrong actions.

In Christ,
Nick Peters

Addendum: I do wish to add that Win Corduan has been kind to my wife and I in all of this even stating there was no justification for the one who referred to Mike as a demon even. This slipped my mind at the time and my apologies to Dr. Corduan.

Geisler and the In-Laws

Hello everyone and welcome back to Deeper Waters where we are diving into the ocean of truth. Last night, I wrote about my personal involvement in the Geisler’s Christmas Carol video. I do appreciate my in-laws taking the time to comment last night and thus, one can see that they have no problem with the video. It is amazing that after all that Geisler has done to us, that he expects us to take down the video and to apologize.

However, Geisler did put up another response today. Apparently, someone has been reading my blog and wasn’t too happy that my in-laws both commented and spoke about how proud they are to have me as a son-in-law, something I take great delight in, and their hopes for the future.

Yes. Terrible things to say about family after all. Apparently, Geisler would have preferred that I be told to never do such again.

Sorry. It doesn’t work that way. Let’s remember what it is that we have all seen happen in this. We’ll use the letter from the SES president as a start to this that Geisler refers to.

“It has come to the attention of the President of SES that a student has made a video about the controversy between Dr. Licona and Dr. Geisler. We believe this video was totally unnecessary and is in extremely poor taste. At SES we demand a high standard of conduct in the way we interact with others. Whenever there is a disagreement on any issue, there is a respectful way to handle it. As Christians, as brothers in Christ, there are occasions when we may have differences, but as members of one Body, we need to resolve our differences according to Scripture. Publically embarrassing anybody is totally unacceptable….” (emphasis is added in all these quotations). — Acting President of Southern Evangelical Seminary

First off, the report wasn’t checked too well. Anyone could have spent a few minutes researching the issue and seen that I did not make the video. In fact, no one at all contacted me and asked if I made the video. No one contacted J.P. Holding, who did make the video, and asked if he made the video. Instead, what we got was just an immediate response that did not bother to examine the case.

The video was unnecessary and in extremely poor taste? So let’s see what charges are not unnecessary and not in extremely poor taste.

Making a man lose his source of income twice.
Damaging his reputation by saying he’s denying Inerrancy.
Calling other Seminaries and telling them to not support him.
Sending a petition behind the scenes to have it shown that he is denying Inerrancy.
Putting psychological stress on all families involved.
Cutting off income that could be used to support others who are also struggling in this economy.
Uninviting him and his friends from speaking at conferences.
Devoting practically one’s whole home page to attacking someone for one section in a book.
Refusing to meet someone at a scholarly conference to discuss your accusations against him.

Apparently then, none of these are unnecessary and in extremely poor taste, but to make a video about someone is.

Let’s suppose for the sake of argument it was. What should have been Geisler’s response? Ignore it. I’ve had atheists say far worse things to me on the internet and I have just laughed about it. Instead, an issue was made over it. Could it be Geisler himself put on the pressure on SES to send out this memo and then points to the memo to demonstrate his point?

Next, we are told there is a respectful way to handle disagreement.

See the above list. I suppose sending out open letters against someone is a respectful way. If there is anything that has not been respectful, it has been Geisler’s treatment of an evangelical champion that just wrote a monumental work defending the central truth of the Christian faith.

As C. Michael Patton said, Geisler and Mohler should have sent twenty letters of commendation before sending one letter of condemnation. This might sound like a shock, but we are to make people disciples of the resurrected Christ and not of Inerrancy. I’m not opposed to Inerrancy, but it seems that priorities are out of sync here.

Over and over, it seems however in this debate that Geisler can run roughshod over Mike and do whatever he wants, but as soon as something ruffles Geisler’s feathers, that is unacceptable. For all the talk of what needs to be condemned, I would love to see someone from the Geisler camp come out and be willing to even say “I agree with Geisler that Mike is violating Inerrancy and needs to change his view, but I disagree in the techniques of using open letters and petitions behind the scenes and think that Geisler has not handled this in a Christlike manner and needs to apologize publicly.”

Anybody else hear crickets chirping at that?

What do we see said in response?

Dr. Geisler has written a personal appeal to Mike Licona asking him to condemn the video and restrict the discussion to the theological issues involved, rather than approving of demeaning attacks on the character of other scholars who are seriously attempting to defend the inerrancy of Scripture. Pray that he has a change of heart.

Meanwhile, I have my own personal appeal. I believe that we should have had a scholarly debate at the start, but that option went out immediately and it certainly wasn’t because of Mike. I believe it’s wrong to cut off someone’s income for something like this, to damage their reputation, to have their orthodoxy questioned, to send petitions behind the scenes, etc.

I call for such bullying behavior to be condemned.

In fact, our requests to have the video taken down were clearly pointed out in the blog, but they have gone unnoticed.

“Pray that Mike has a change of heart.”

It’s so ironic Geisler says this when it quite exemplifies the attitude given in the video of Mike being kicked out the door and told “I’m just doing this because I love you brother.”

No. The change of heart is on the side that’s going after Mike and his reputation, family, and income. In fact, my wife and I have prayed for this regularly. What has happened to us has been a hurtful and betraying time, but it seems that those in the Geisler camp are sadly blind to the effect that Geisler is having in the evangelical world with this.

By the way, Geisler in all of this does not name me or give a reference to my blog where people can see that I put up counter-arguments or that Max Andrews has them or that J.P. Holding has them. Keep in mind this is being done while saying that Mike should be reading the critiques of his opponents. Looks like that rule doesn’t go both ways.

Rest assured, I will not be doing the same thing. I will most certainly be putting up a link to what Geisler has said.

I also call other evangelicals to this. I don’t really care at this point if you think Geisler is right or if you think Mike is right or if you just don’t know. What I ask at this point is let the bullying stop. Do we want to settle this issue? Then have another meeting where both sides can argue their position in a scholarly manner before other scholars.

The open letters should never have happened, but it was Geisler who opened Pandora’s Box. It does no good now for him to complain because he doesn’t like the results of that action.

Finally, let me say this about my family. My father-in-law in all of this has not to my memory said one remark that I would really consider insulting of Geisler at all. He has been very easygoing in all of this and has said publicly on Facebook that if Geisler just apologized to him, he would hug him and act like nothing happened. However, he does think that Geisler’s approach is harmful to the evangelical movement as do I.

If Geisler has further problems with the video, he is absolutely free as well to contact my ministry partner and complain to him about it. Why has this not been done? My ministry partner also has a debate challenge up for Geisler on whether the gospels are Greco-Roman biographies or not. That link will be included at the end.

What will it take to get all of this to end? Does Licona have to agree with Geisler even though he doesn’t see the evidence? Does everyone else have to be shut down, and does that include myself? What will it take?

It could all end with a simple act of repentance on Geisler’s part, but most of us sure aren’t expecting that to happen.

In Christ,
Nick Peters

Geisler’s Website can be found here where there is a link to his statement on my father-in-law’s words.

J.P. Holding’s challenge can be found here.

Christmas Carol Chaos

Hello everyone and welcome back to Deeper Waters where we are diving into the ocean of truth. I certainly hope that you all have had a very Merry Christmas. My wife and I had a great time with my folks and we have a lot of important decisions ahead of us so please be praying for us in this. For now, I think it’s time that I spoke on the latest goings on in the Geisler controversy.

A large part of it came with the release of Geisler’s Christmas Carol, hence the name of the blog. I will put a link to the video below.

My thinking was people would find out about the video before too long on their own so I might as well release the news. Thus, I went to my Facebook and posted a link to the video for people to see. What a surprise I had when it turns out that people were saying that I produced the video.

My wife would tell you that I could not even draw a stick man.

Anyone else could tell you that I constantly have to call anyone I can to help me with really technical things on the computer. I don’t know how many of you have told me to fix the date set-up on the blogs. I can’t figure out how to do that kind of thing.

But I’m supposed to have produced the video….

Now did I do voice work on this? Yep. So did my wife. That’s about all that we do in these videos. My ministry partner, J.P. Holding of Tektonics produced it.

The rumor was spread, despite evidence to the contrary that anyone who watched the whole video could have seen, with a letter coming out from a president of SES saying that a student had produced a video. It is incredible that this conclusion was reached since it is directly said to be a work of Tektonics ministries. For those interested, Holding’s response to this will also be seen at the bottom.

Consider me also quite a bit irritated at the thought that what has been done in this cartoon is considered unnecessary and offensive and it needs to be taken down. Let’s see. My father-in-law has lost two jobs, been put in a hard financial situation that affects my wife and I as well with our already poor finances, had his wife and mine gone through considerable stress over this, has been uninvited from speaking engagements along with his friends that have supported him, been the object of phone calls to Seminary presidents warning about him, had his reputation smeared on the net by the Geisler camp, and had a petition going around behind the scenes claiming that he is out of line and his methodology is unorthodox and that he’s denying Inerrancy.

All that is okay, but putting together a little satirical video is not.

What reason are we given? Some people find it offensive! No doubt, these people think it was probably ridiculous how Muslims went on a rampage over a cartoon. No doubt, several of these people do not hesitate to pass around political cartoons going after a candidate they don’t like. These people would normally also encourage us to learn to be willing to take a stand for Christ and that we need to get out of the tolerance trap that we should not say something just because it offends someone.

What’s offensive about it? Who knows.

Seriously. Who knows? We’re just not told. We’re just told that it is. Now is it sarcastic? Yep. Is it satirical? Yep. Nothing wrong with that either. Both methods were used in Scripture.

Interestingly, when Geisler writes about this in his letters, he writes about Mike’s son-in-law and friend. Geisler goes out of his way to not even mention me by name nor to mention my ministry partner by name. He should know my ministry partner’s name however. After all, it was the person who’s challenged was deleted from Geisler’s Facebook page.

Geisler has also complained that Mike Licona has not stopped his son-in-law, being myself, and others from writing on this on the net. Well sorry, but if you open Pandora’s Box, you have to deal with the consequences. If you don’t want this talked about publicly, then don’t make it public. Had this been settled in the scholarly venue like Mike had suggested, none of this would have happened.

And believe it or not, Mike did do something of trusting me with his daughter so maybe it could be that he actually trusts my judgment in the area of writing and thinks that I’m big enough to think for myself and write for myself and he will not force me to do something. Of course, he is my father-in-law and we do discuss matters sometime, but I get nothing but respect from him as I hope he gets from me. He also realizes that I can argue on my own.

Now some of you might be saying “Well Nick, maybe Geisler just doesn’t know who you are so that’s why he says son-in-law over and over.” Nice try, but no. Geisler knows me. I was one of his students in his classroom, he was present when I spoke at ISCA, he received an invitation to our wedding, he was one of the first people my wife and I saw when we returned from the time at Christmas when I proposed to her, and he and his wife have had dinner with us even since we’ve been married.

Could it be that if my name is mentioned, that could get someone to look me up and if they look me up, they’ll find that in fact, my blog is loaded with counter-arguments to Geisler’s position?

It seems Geisler has availed himself of some resources, such as his statement that he knows that Mike said on a podcast that he has not read Geisler’s critiques. Well who can blame him? What some of us have noticed is that when you read one, you’ve read them all. They all run the same and after awhile, it gets to the point where anyone could write a Licona Letter.

Sorry, but Mike has been busy with other important tasks. You know, tasks like starting a ministry, finding support for it, and studying for debates. These are the kinds of things that you tend to have to do when you’re unemployed because the activities of someone has caused you to lose your job.

However, in spite of Geisler listening to this, he still says that on page 306 of Mike’s book, Mike denies that the guards fell back. No. He doesn’t. He says that in looking for embellishments, that text is brought forward. He admits for the sake of argument that it could be an embellishment. In the podcast however, Mike does state that he does not believe the New Testament has embellishments.

It’s Geisler getting that wrong that is even making me have this question in my mind. Has Geisler even read Mike’s book? I’m really no longer sure that he has.

Geisler also states that Mike denies that the angels appeared at the tomb. Where does he do this? Once again, I wonder why I should trust Geisler’s interpretation of the Bible when he can’t seem to interpret contemporary texts correctly, not to mention that he can’t seem to interpret a video.

As for the event in John, what’s the big deal? If John knew the correct date and his audience knew that he knew it and he was making a point by altering chronology, it is not lying. Some say he could have done the same with putting the temple cleansing at the start of the gospel. I wonder if the Geisler camp can tell me in what order the temptations of Jesus took place.

Let us look however at the reasons that have been given to condemn the Christmas Carol video. (All the while, Geisler’s actions have not been condemned. It is quite remarkable.)

To begin with, the one with the video doesn’t even know if an SES student produced the video. Basic fact-checking would have explained that. However, what’s his first reason?

#1-Dickens’s work was used in a disrespectful way.

Reason being? Who knows! We’re not given it. The Christmas Carol has been redone over and over again. I’ve considered before trying to count how many variations of it there are. In Max Andrews’s excellent response, he asks how they would respond to the Muppet’s Christmas Carol.

The second is that Geisler deserves respect. Well respect is earned. It is also lost. Geisler apparently can treat Mike any way he wants to and that’s okay, but if we do something “disrespectful” that’s a no-no.

Third is that it’s sarcastic and puts words in Geisler’s mouth. Sarcastic? You bet. That’s the point. As for putting words in the mouth of Geisler, all that is said is documented on the video description. Which part has not been presented accurately?

Fourth is about Geisler’s followers being clones. The sad reality is that if you go to Geisler’s Facebook page, you can find that over and over, people tend to just quote Geisler’s writings as if that’s enough and none of us have read them. I’m not saying all are like that, but there are a sizable number who are unfortunately.

Fifth, the video is accused of mocking Inerrancy. Not for a second. JPH and I both hold seriously to Inerrancy.

Sixth, the video is actually threatening to take physical action against Geisler.

Oh come on! Anyone who saw me could tell you that I’m not capable of any kind of real physical attack and to think that a snowball in the face means we okay the use of physical force is ridiculous! (Apparently however, this viewer of the video could figure out authorial intent. Perhaps only those in the Geisler camp can know authorial intent.)

It is even more ludicrous in light of the fact that we on the Licona side have had to generally keep silent for a long time because of the fear of what would happen to us. Why are so many evangelicals not speaking out on this issue? They don’t want to be on the receiving end of Geisler. Who really fears being on the receiving end of team Licona? What great action have we taken to people that would make them afraid to stand against us?

In fact, it is quite ironic that the complaint is made about an attack on Geisler (In fact, Geisler’s description of the video calls it an attack on him) while Geisler has endorsements from someone who says the student who made the video should be dismissed from the college.

Note also someone even reported the video. Oh my. YouTube would be busy all day if they had to respond to all complaints like that.

By the way, who are these people?

We don’t know. They could be anyone. They won’t identify themselves but the fact that some nameless people we don’t know don’t really like a video is enough reason to take it down.

Geisler also complains that Mike has not condemned the video.

To that, all we can say is JPH is responsible for the video and he has been fair and given actions that he will accept as enough to take down the video. They can be found below.

Where will this all lead? Who knows again? What is hoped to be accomplished? One would hope that Geisler will read the comments being raised on the net. People are asking if Geisler has a mental illness of some sort. Some have questioned his salvation. Some people are wondering if Geisler is just doing this to promote his latest book coming out. I’m not saying any of these are true, but that they are being raised should be enough to make one think they should be changing their stance.

What can we do? Pray for the good of evangelicalism and do our part. I believe it’s time to revisit Inerrancy as I think the version there is now has been too corrupted by this and I fear the deck had been stacked for a certain view when the statement was being written. We cannot have a free discussion when one man can point to his interpretation of the document alone. We need to have several men being able to state what it says regularly.

Hopefully this is all coming to a close soon. It could get worse before it gets better, but we urge Geisler to put an end himself to what he’s doing. Admit that this has gone on too long and that great harm has happened to the body and to various persons in that body.

Do I think that that will happen? Sadly, no. Until this ends however, I plan to keep my pace going and continue making my stand. I ask for your prayers and support for my wife and I as I continue to do so.

In Christ,
Nick Peters

Geisler’s Christmas Carol – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSMEsQkoH3A&feature=g-u&context=G25c7cd8FUAAAAAAADAA

J.P. Holding’s response – http://tektonticker.blogspot.com/2011/12/scrooges-christmas-eve-gift.html

Support Mike’s ministry at RisenJesus.com.

The podcast of Mike Licona on the Theopologetics program can be found here: http://theopologetics.blogspot.com/2011/12/episode-69-when-saints-go-marching-in.html

Max Andrews’s reply can be found here: http://sententias.org/2011/12/26/auctoritas-a-response-to-the-geisler-controversy/

What it will take to take down the video: — http://tektonticker.blogspot.com/2011/12/geislers-demand.html

Embellishments and Legends

Hello everyone and welcome back to Deeper Waters where we are diving into the ocean of truth. C. Michael Patton of Credo House at the Parchment and Pen blog has been writing lately on the Geisler-Licona debate and recently wrote on sound bites that are being used. Since then, Mike Licona has also been on Chris Date’s program, the Theopologetics podcast, to which I will be providing a link to at the end of this blog.

Some such sound bites are about the topics of legend and embellishment. Let’s look at them.

“It can forthrightly be admitted that the data surrounding what happened to Jesus is fragmentary and could possibly be mixed with legend, as Wedderburn notes. We may also be reading poetic language of legend at certain points, such as Matthew’s report of the raising of some dead saints at Jesus’ death (Mt 27:51-54) and the angels at the tomb (Mk 16:5-7; Mt. 28:2-7; Lk 24:4-7; Jn 20:11-14) [pp. 185-186]

Look at those terms. Could possibly be mixed with legend? We may be reading poetic language? Such talk can certainly scare some Christians. What about this?

“A possible candidate for embellishment is Jn 18:4-6″ [p. 306, note 114)

A possible candidate for embellishment? Is this saying that the text contains embellishments?

Fortunately, on the podcast that I have referred to above, Mike has taken a stance on whether he thinks there are legends and embellishments and has answered “No.”

So what about the above quotes?

Oh they’re in the book for sure. Much has been said about them. In reviewing one of Geisler’s statements, he says the text gives no indication that this is not historical. However, Mike also has not said that what happens is not historical. Which then again raises the question, what is going on exactly?

Something I try to do when I evangelize to a skeptic and when I teach others to do so is to grant as much as I possibly can to my opponent. I want to take the worst-case scenario and still demonstrate Christianity from that. Now of course, if some item in the list definitively contradicts Christianity, I cannot grant that. I cannot say to an atheist “I’ll grant you that God doesn’t exist and demonstrate Christianity.” After all, Christianity essentially teaches that God exists. If there is no God, there is no Christianity. Could Jesus have risen from the dead however if the NT contained some errors, for instance?

I don’t see why not and you should have no problem with it either. After all, the resurrection has to pre-date the NT and when the early churches were formed, they did not have a NT to read from. Let’s suppose the NT had never been written. Would it still be true Jesus rose from the dead? Yes. We’d just have a great lack of evidence. Let’s suppose Paul slipped up in some letters. Would Jesus have still risen from the dead? Yes. Let’s suppose the gospels have contradictions Would Jesus have still risen from the dead? Yes.

In essence then, Mike is writing an academic work to people in Academia and he’s playing by the rules of the game and saying “Okay. Let’s approach the text your way. We’ll approach the text and we’ll be open to legends. We’ll be open to the possibility that we could be reading poetic language. We’ll be open to the possibility of embellishment. Now let’s see what you have.”

This is exactly what I have done when some people have spoken to me. “Well what if macroevolution is true? What then?” Exactly. What then?

Let’s suppose macroevolution is true. Does that mean Jesus didn’t rise from the dead? Not at all.

Well what if the universe is eternal?

Yes. What if? Does that mean Jesus didn’t rise from the dead?

What if there’s a multi-verse?

Does that mean Jesus didn’t rise from the dead?

Unfortunately, people are just looking at the statements and thinking Mike is making a categorical statement that X is an embellishment and that the Bible contains legends. There’s also an idea that an event described must be historical or it is a legend or a myth. That does not follow either.

And the sad reality is in doing what they’re doing, they’re not availing themselves of a great work defending the resurrection. In fact, it seems that once one of these sound bites is quoted then it’s picked up on every other blog that’s of the same mindset.

Sound bites can be very dangerous. Authors can have their views completely misrepresented by just looking at one quote and disregarding everything else. This is especially true if there is no surrounding context to the quotation. Of course, we do have to quote at times, but on many of these matters, it is highly recommended that someone check the original context.

Are we against being open to legend and embellishment? I hope not. After all, how can we tell the atheist he needs to be open to being wrong if we’re not willing to do the same? Let the case be brought forward and follow the evidence where it leads.

We shall continue next time.

The link to Chris Date’s podcast can be found here.

Pastor Tim’s Small Pop

Hello everyone and welcome back to Deeper Waters where we are diving into the ocean of truth. I’m going to interrupt going through the ICBI statement tonight to look at a reply that I saw on the internet yesterday from Pastor Tim, who I believe I have written about before. If my memory is faulty right now, oh well. I started having some dialogue with Pastor Tim on the net early on when this started. Unfortunately, the mindset I see there is one I think is highly detrimental to the church. I will be commenting on his blog post and on some comments he’s made in response to notable thinkers who have shown up.

I’ve been upfront with a possible bias seeing as I am happily married to Mike’s daughter. However, there are numerous issues Mike and I disagree on biblically. Right off, I can think of two of them that are secondary doctrines. We have our own back and forth sometimes on some issues, but always in an agreeable fashion. If he was wrong, I would tell him I thought so. On the issue of if the text is describing a historical event or not, I’m not sure at this point. However, I am sure he is not violating Inerrancy.

Pastor Tim’s blog can be found here.

At the start, I see a problem as the well is being poisoned. I think in many ways I can relate to Sheldon Cooper of the Big Bang Theory. Some friends showed my wife and I two episodes and told us Sheldon was most like an Aspie, which is what my wife and I both are. (Aspie refers to someone with Asperger’s) I wonder about the “geeks” chasing after a Nobel Peace Prize however. (Most would like one in one of the sciences.) Pastor Tim say the geeks will accept any theory of truth to be accepted into the world of academia.

Which is obviously why we do what we do. Yep. Those of us who are the apologists aren’t interested in truth. We’re just going to accept whatever we can in order to be recognized. That explains why we’re so popular and Joel Osteen is so not.

It seems that absent from those who are against Mike is the bizarre idea to them that he could actually believe what he believes on the basis of evidence. Surely that can’t be it! He must be swayed by liberalism! He must have a hard time believing in miracles! He must just want to water the text down! Whatever the reason is, it can’t be evidence!

Or maybe it is.

Pastor Tim finds it amazing that Mike was allowed to give his talk targeting Geisler, but Geisler was not allowed to respond. How scholarly is that?

Okay. Who says Geisler wasn’t allowed to respond? Did Geisler or someone representing him submit a paper to be read? If so, then can we see evidence? If not, why should Mike be disqualified from giving his paper? I suppose if I gave one against Richard Dawkins that we’d have to call up Dawkins to give a counter-paper and if he was unavailable, well so much for mine.

These papers go public and it is quite fine to present it in this fashion. This was already a public issue because Geisler made it a public issue and once Pandora’s Box is opened, there’s no getting everything back in. By the way, if we’re talking about the right to speak, Geisler said in his response to the EPS paper that Mike has not restrained his family and friends from speaking online. If that’s a problem, then why not have the sword cut both ways and say that Pastor Tim should be honoring Geisler and not speaking about it online?

Or is it the case that those on Geisler’s side can speak but those of us with Mike cannot.

Pastor Tim says that Mike is approaching the text as if there are errors that need to be reconciled.

Question time everyone! What error has Mike said is in the text?

Answer: None.

This would be an error. Mike would have to say something like “We know Matthew recorded this incident as if it was a historical event, but it was not a historical event. Matthew is simply wrong. Therefore, I will say it’s apocalyptic to save Inerrancy.”

That’s not what is being said at all. Mike is not saying “I know the account is historical, but I deny its historicity.” At the start, Pastor Tim is begging the question. Of course if the account is historical then Mike is denying Inerrancy, but that is the question at issue. Is it historical? Keep in mind that others like William Lane Craig have taken the same stance, but strangely enough, there is no pressure on Craig, even though this has been pointed out to Geisler on his Facebook page.

Pastor Tim also talks about how leading apologists have had followings by lowly and ignorant pastors. Let me say something about that here.

There is NO excuse for a pastor to be ignorant.

If you are an ignorant pastor, you either wise up, or you give the pulpit over to someone more capable.

Now not every pastor is meant to be a professional apologist any more than they’re meant to be a professional counselor. However, every pastor should have some basic training in apologetics and in counseling and in any other area of ministry. He should also be able to have a point man he can refer to on these issues. In my current church here, we have plenty of apologists and our pastor studies the subject. In my old church, I was the main one who studied and would have been the go-to guy for apologetics. In that case, the pastor could do his work and if a question came up, he could send someone to me to answer it. I’d have no problem with such a relationship because one pastor cannot do anything.

A pastor is supposed to be a man of knowledge however and in our age, having zeal is often seen as a replacement, while Paul bemoaned his people who had zeal but not in accordance with knowledge. I don’t care how passionate you feel about Christianity. That does not give you the right to stand in a pulpit if you don’t have real knowledge about what you’re talking about. The pastor should be seeking to constantly learn and educate himself for the feeding of his flock. After all, if you’re ignorant, chances are they’ll be ignorant as well and when they evangelize, they’ll be presenting ignorance to a skeptical world.

It won’t end well.

Speaking about these apologists, Pastor Tim says the following:

They should answer, for the world, the following question. Do they truly embrace inerrancy or are they merely mouthing the words because of the political coverage and name recognition it has given them?

For me, I truly do embrace Inerrancy. The problem is, this won’t be enough for Pastor Tim when he knows I’m open to Mike’s view. This is what amazes me about these guys. They seem to know authorial intent. They know exactly what Matthew meant. They know exactly what all the framers of ICBI meant. They even know exactly what I mean when I say I embrace Inerrancy and somehow it means that I don’t embrace Inerrancy despite what I say to the contrary. Pastor Tim however tops this all with this line:

Make no mistake about it, these apologists have made a huge income off of the evangelical world and much of that income has come out of the Southern Baptist Convention. The books, speaking conferences, and other events that move these names among us funds these apologists in their world-wide travels. Just follow any of the apologists listed on the above linked blog on Facebook or Twitter and one will see world locations through their camera lens.

Well I have been secret about it, but my wife and I did not vacation at Ocean Isle Beach on our honeymoon. Instead, Mike fired up his private jet for us and flew us off to a five-star hotel in Aruba where we spent a week together. Right now, we’re back at the mansion and I just berated a servant for not serving my morning breakfast properly.

Forget anything I’ve said about just having a part-time job in this economy and needing to even have government aid to make it seeing as my old job just let me go a few months before my wedding. (To be assuring however, it looks like a really great job is coming up. It’s practically a sure thing. It’ll just take a couple of months.)

If there’s big money going on in all of this, please tell me where it is? I can assure Pastor Tim that the Liconas are not living in luxury. Neither are the Habermases, the Craigs, etc. I did not enter this field wanting to make money. In fact, my wife and I have it a point that we never want to be rich. We want to be comfortable and have enough to be able to make it and enjoy ourselves some every now and then, but we don’t want wealth.

For myself, I haven’t got a penny from Southern Baptist Conventions as well. I can also say that when an apologist like Craig does a tour like Reasonable Faith that is in another country, there is much fundraising that takes place because it does cost money to fly someone over and have them speak and to give them food and a place to stay. The apologists don’t have the bank account on their own.

As for Pastor Tim’s last sentence about seeing world locations through the camera lens, I have looked and looked at this sentence and I have no idea what it is he is trying to say. At any rate, this whole paragraph is a great smear on all apologists saying that we are just in this for the money and we don’t care about truth. Many of us have been working to bridge the gap between the world of apologetics and the world of the lay person and show the lay person that apologetics is for them. They too can partake of the fruits of the academy.

Posts like this make it all the harder as Pastor Tim seems to encourage that divide.

Pastor Tim refers to the writing of Max Andrews linked to in the blog as scholarly arrogance at its best. In what way? What has Andrews said that is arrogant? Pastor Tim then says that Andrews says concerning that if the account is historical or not, that he takes the agnostic position and then decides to tie him in with Thomas Huxley who was an agnostic.

Agnostic about the existence of God! Not about a particular issue.

Is it wrong Pastor Tim to answer a question with “I don’t know.”?

One of my favorite TV series has been Monk. I can imagine introducing Pastor Tim to the series and getting near to the end of an episode. “Well Pastor Tim. Who do you think did the crime. Monk’s figured it out. Have you?”

“No. I don’t know who did it.”

“You don’t know! You agnostic! How dare you take a position of unbelief!”

Or could I say that if Pastor Tim is wanting to go with tradition, “Well Pastor Tim, here you are a Southern Baptist and you’re saying that we need to go with what tradition has said. Are you sure you’re not a Roman Catholic?” (I mean no insult to my Catholic friends in that but just going on how generally I see that the two groups don’t get along.)

Pastor Tim goes on to say this:

Here is the issue in a nutshell. The “method” these leading evangelical apologists take is a method of “demonstrable proof” from a text that calls us to faith. Wonder what would have happened if Jesus would have taken this position when the pharisees approached him? He would have never referenced Jonah.

Pastor Tim. The Koran also calls us to trust that Muhammad is a prophet. Do you have faith? Faith is not blind belief. It is trust in what has been shown to be reliable and it is shown to be reliable by demonstration. If your position is true, then you should seek to destroy any evidence of Christianity. That will after all lead to more faith. The disciples ought not to have preached the empty tomb. They should have just said “Despite any evidence to the contrary, don’t bother looking. The tomb is empty! Just trust us! Now convert!”

In fact, this is why Jesus referenced Jonah. He was giving the Pharisees demonstrable proof. He had done many signs in the miracles but he was saying that he would perform the ultimate demonstrable proof of who he was when he rose again from the dead.

The methodology being protected by leading apologists associated with the Evangelical Philosophical Society (Wm. Lane Craig Gary Habermas, Max Andrews, Paul Copan) is a methodology that subjugates the historical text of Holy Writ to secular Greco-Roman literature.

No. This is not being subjugated. It’s just saying the Bible was not written in a vacuum. Paul had Greco-Roman rhetoric in his letters. That’s demonstrable. The gospels are in the genre of Greco-Roman biographies. That’s demonstrable. If Pastor Tim has ever given a sermon using powerpoint, then he should understand this. The gospel writers used a medium familiar to their readers.

There is nothing wrong with extra-biblical sources being used. For instance, consider how Paul says we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, the Bema. Okay. That sounds interesting. Then you find out that we’ve found the Bema that Paul spoke about that Gallio sat on and what a large and imposing figure it was. This was no ordinary throne! All of a sudden, our understanding of Bema is improved, but this is because we have something extra-biblical.

Consider when we have the Samaritans say that we know that Jesus truly is the Savior of the World. That’s really good to hear. Then, we learn from extra-biblical sources that that was said of Caesar. All of a sudden, we know that the Samaritans are setting Jesus in contrast to Caesar.

Let’s not forget the wealth of information we have now on Second Temple Judaism and how that helps us to understand the text all the more. I’ve given just a couple of examples, but several more could be given.

That, friends is not inerrancy.

Really? How come? There’s no reason for this statement given. It’s just given. Pastor Tim doesn’t argue he. He merely asserts it and thinks that that settles the issue. Why is it that as soon as we use extra-biblical sources, we are violating Inerrancy?

Anyone that accepts Licona’s methodology is advocating a text full of errors and only those with a proper understanding can spot those errors.

Blech! What’s with this water?! It’s got poison in it!

I accept Licona’s methodology and I deny that the text is full of errors. I do affirm a proper understanding however can help reconcile “supposed errors.” What can Pastor Tim say to this however? “No. You believe the text is full of errors!” I’ve said that I don’t. How could it be that Pastor Tim knows more about what I mean by what I say than I do? Now it could be that I am wrong and the text is full of errors, but I cannot be wrong in that I know that I believe the text is not full of errors. My belief can be wrong, but I cannot be wrong in knowing I believe that.

Looking at the comments, I agree with the commenter who said Pastor Tim spoke like one who had not done research. When I dialogued with him back earlier when this all started, I was convinced that he had not even read Mike’s book on the topic. I seriously doubt he has at this point, but he’s prepared to tell his congregation that it denies Inerrancy. He might not have said that in the pulpit, but he has said it on his blog.

Unfortunately, it looks like several or showing up and telling Pastor Tim that he’s wrong on this, but he’s unable to accept any correction. It is as if Geisler has spoken and the case is closed. There is something to sticking to one’s guns of course, but when there are many people more educated than you being as gentle as they can telling you, you really need to think through these issues because you’re just not engaging with the argument, you should listen.

Francis Beckwith made a fine point to Pastor Tim about a reading of Exodus 33 with a literalist bent in that it would produce God with a body. This argument was not responded to at all by Pastor Tim.

It’s also pointed out that Geisler is wanting to take the case to ETS, even though Geisler left ETS years ago due to its not having a strong stance on doctrine. (All of a sudden, the organization suits his purposes however) Beckwith also points out that while Pastor Tim thought a scholarly exchange should take place, on his own blog, he opposed the meeting between Geisler and Mike at SEBTS.

Tim’s response?

Second, let me move to my claim. You are correct, I do not know that Dr. Geisler was asked to respond. As, one commenter has stated Dr. Geisler is not a member of ETS. However, what I do know is that Dr. Al Mohler takes the same position as Dr. Geisler and he was never mentioned in Dr. Licona’s paper in any shape or form concerning his position. The only mention of Dr. Mohler was Dr. Licona’s attempt to show a divide in young earthers and old earth proponents. If Dr. Licona’s position is so “orthodox” then why, pray tell, does one that advocates orthodoxy in every paragraph he writes and speak express in writing that it is not inerrancy?

Why does Mohler say this? Because Mohler believes it, but Mohler is wrong. I have shown that in my own reply to Mohler here. Are we to say that Mohler is infallable? It is as if there is some kind of group think going on here. Furthermore, why should Mike respond to Mohler who just made one post and that was it? The main one who’s gone after him is Geisler.

Third, Dr. Geisler did refuse to accept the invitation to SEBTS. However, Dr. Mohler did as well. The reason I expressed he did not need to be on such a panel, is very clear. My position is that inerrancy is best seen among those the people in the pew. Those in the pew understand inerrancy and will spot someone that does not advocate in a “New York minute”. Scholars are working from a “collegial” perspective. Thus, no scholar desires to go against another scholar’s position. Dr. Geisler and Dr. Mohler are two of the few scholars that will publicly speak out on this issue. This debate does not need to be covered over by scholarly language and hidden away in the towers of academia. Inerrancy is not an academic position it is a position that the people in the pew hold the pastors in the pulpits responsible to maintain.

So Geisler did not need to go because there was no need since this should be shown to the person sitting in the pew, but when it came to EPS, where there were no persons sitting in the pew, Geisler did need to have a chance to respond. What? Can anyone make any sense out of this? Is it not more likely that Beckwith has pointed out a contradiction?

Dr. Geisler and Dr. Mohler are two of the few scholars that will publicly speak out on the issue?

Well I suppose so since it seems that those who speak out in favor of Mike become the next targets of the machine, get disinvited to conferences, and lose their jobs. Could it be some scholars don’t speak out because they do want to provide for their families like Pastor Tim does?

And do note that there were several who spoke out in favor of Licona in a petition he had. These were all disregarded. Geisler and Mohler are not NT scholars. The ones who signed the petition are. What is it that Geisler and Mohler know that the leading NT scholars do not know? What is it that Pastor Tim knows that the leading NT scholars do not know?

The person in the pew is also the one that while supposedly can spot the denial of Inerrancy, will sadly in our day and age have no response to what someone like Bart Ehrman says, unless that response is fideism, that is, believing without evidence. If that is the case, Ehrman shuts them down for any effective evangelism. My stance is the person in the pew needs to be more educated and interacting with the scholarly world. Pastor Tim moves us in the direction of fideism.

In response to Peter Grice, Pastor Tim says:

First, you say;
“Apologists affirm and defend Inspiration
Why? The Bible says it is inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16) and it says “In the beginning was the Word…and the Word was God” (John 1:1) it also tells us “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14), and it says ” he that hath seen me hath seen the Father” (John 14:9). There is no need to affirm or defend what God has said.

One does not know where to begin with this really. The Bible says it is inspired by God. So does the Book of Mormon. So does the Koran. Would Pastor Tim accept that from the Mormon or the Muslim? Then, Pastor Tim moves on to John 1:1 and John 1:14.

This is the point where I want to start screaming.

John 1:1 and John 1:14 when saying the Word do not mean the Bible. They are talking about Jesus. I hope Pastor Tim knows that, but it is hard to get that impression from reading this. When we bring that over to John 14:9, I wonder that has to do with the price of tea in China.

I wonder what Pastor Tim would do when a skeptic approached him about the events that happened when a great man died according to Virgil.

“Well those are not historical.”

“Why not?”

“They just didn’t happen.”

“But the event in the Bible did?”

“Yes.”

“Why did those in the Bible happen but not those in Virgil?”

“Because the Bible is historical.”

“How do you know this?”

“Because it says so.”

“How do you know that’s true?”

“Because it’s the Word of God?”

“How do you know that?”

“It says so.”

“But the Book of Mormon and the Koran say the same.”

“They’re not stating the truth.”

“How do you know?”

“Because they disagree with the Bible.”

This is entirely circular in how it goes. If the Bible is inspired, and I believe it is, one should be able to demonstrate it. Otherwise, they’re holding to a double-theory of truth. You remember that theory don’t you? It’s the very one that Geisler condemned in an open-letter. If the Bible is true to reality, open investigation by a skeptic should be able to come to that conclusion. Of course, there are reasons some don’t, and we can help counter those, but the Bible will be able to have contact with reality if it is true.

Pastor Tim says one should not think the Bible needs defending. Why should someone think that? One can think of the Spurgeon quote where he’d sooner defend a lion than the Bible. Well Spurgeon was wrong. The Bible will not defend itself. That’s not it’s place. If you believe in the Bible, you will want to defend it and honor it in the face of those who seek to deny it and you will want to do so with the best of arguments.

Pastor Tim also says:

However, it seems that apologists stopped realizing that an unbeliever will not accept any argument of faith without the “spirit of God” drawing him. The apologist will never convince an unbelieving world God exists. The apologist will never convince an unbelieving world the Bible is God’s Word. Those are the tasks of the Holy Spirit.

By himself, the apologist will not convince the unbeliever. That is true. However, the apologist should not claim to do this by himself. Of course, the Holy Spirit is there, but the Holy Spirit can also use a good argument. In fact, we should give the Holy Spirit the best that we have and that includes our best arguments. We should not come to the unbeliever completely ignorant and expect the Holy Spirit to make up for our laziness.

You seem to be presuming there is hidden meaning within the text that have to be teased out through the “scholarly” process. It is once again another way of saying there is “truer truth”. Or as I put it in the OP a “canon within a canon”. Certainly no one intends to presume that God is bound to anything. However, neither does God give us a text that has hidden meanings for us to ponder and only those with enough scholarly insight can find the full meaning of the text. That, my brother, is a form of gnosticism if not full blown gnosticism.

And here we have yet another example of “The Bible was written for 21st century Americans.” Oh there are a number of things that are plain in the Bible. There are a number that are not. We have Pastor Tim appealing often to the pew-sitter. Okay. Which one do I go to?

Do I go to the Presbyterian church where they will talk about how the Bible teaches Calvinism?

Do I go to the SBC one that has the Bible clearly teaching dispensationalism?

Do I go to the Pentecostal one with the Bible clearly teaching that charismatic gifts are today?

What about the one that has an Arminian statement of faith? Is that one getting what the Bible is clearly teaching?

What about the one that holds to an old-earth interpretation? Hugh Ross is a pastor of a church after all.

Or do I go to one that holds to a young-earth view?

What about one that has a preterist approach to eschatology?

What about one that holds to eternal security?

Or do I go with one that denies eternal security?

Which person in the pew do I go to? They all affirm inerrancy, but they all disagree on what the text means.

You know, that text that is so clear that we don’t need the scholarly world to understand it.

I think in reality that the text is NOT clear on several matters and for that we need hard study. We actually need to dig into the text and wrestle with it. We need to avail ourselves of the biblical languages. (By the way, those languages are not taught in the Bible. You have to go outside the Bible to know what those words mean.) We need to learn the social context of the Bible. We need archaeology and philosophy and history. We need to look at the world and say “If the Bible is true, whatever I learn can help me in my understanding of the Bible,” and then have at it.

It seems Pastor Tim’s approach is afraid of higher learning as it will some how dilute the teachings of the Bible. As one who values higher learning, I have no fear of it. I have spent some time recently reading on an issue for instance in biblical doctrine that I disagree with. I regularly read books by the cults and by atheists because I want to know what their arguments are. It’s great to go into a library and/or bookstore and get what you want without fear.

Pastor Tim also says:

Further is the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy, a statement that Dr. Licona has affirmed to be part of the ETS. You say we should not be insistent on the “literal-historical narrative”. However, ETS affirms something different in Article XVII than your statement;
“We affirm that the text of Scripture is to be interpreted by grammatical-historical exegesis, taking account of its literary forms and devices, and that Scripture is to interpret Scripture.
We deny the legitimacy of any treatment of the text or quest for sources lying behind it that leads to relativizing, dehistoricizing, or discounting its teaching, or rejecting its claims to authorship.”

Actually Pastor, that’s article XVIII, and it is one I wrote about here. Once again, we find this idea of just trot out the ICBI statement and that settles everything.

Apparently, all of the scholars that side with Licona did not know about that article, even though two of them were signers!

Pastor Tim later says:

Paul penned his words to the Corinthians approximately 55AD. Matthew penned his words to this circulatory letter approximately 60AD.

Question Pastor Tim. How do you know when Paul wrote Corinthians? Does the letter itself contain a date? How do you know that Matthew wrote the book of Matthew? Do you see his name anywhere in that book? I don’t. Please don’t dare tell us that you’re using…GASP!…

EXTRA-BIBLICAL MATERIAL!

Why yes. Yes you are, and you’re using extra-biblical material to increase your understanding of the text. We do the exact same thing, but when we do it, you have a problem with it.

Another case of “Do as I say, not as I do.”

Would one not agree that Paul was the most “well read” among the two? With that being the case then a question glares us in the face. Why did Paul not make such a reference in his defense of the resurrection when he wrote about it in 1 Corinthians? Is Dr. Licona calling the account that Paul points to in 1 Corinthians into question as well? Paul never referenced this “myth” that Dr. Licona has suddenly found. Paul would have been the one to bring this out as he is the basis for using extra-biblical information and making it a part of the Holy Writ under the inspiration of God. Thus, since Paul did not call into question this “poetry” Dr. Licona has found and attributes to Matthew’s intent, I believe I am well within the “Denial” statement of The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy Article XVII.

Okay Pastor Tim. Why did Paul also not include a defense of the virgin birth? Why did he not include a defense of Christ doing miracles? I believe I have a simple answer for your question here.

Paul is speaking about the eschatological judgment at the end. Little resurrections here and there in the middle would not matter. The question is “Will we all be resurrected at the end?” Paul’s basis for this is the resurrection of Christ as the firstfruits. (To which Paul Copan raises the point that if Christ is the firstfruits, how could it be that those resurrected saints would have glorified bodies prior to Christ?) Since we are identified as being in Christ (And not in resurrected saints) then we will also be raised with Christ and raised as He was.

He would not bring up the Matthew 27 incident any more than he would bring up Lazarus because it was completely irrelevant. Furthermore, this would have been part of the oral Jesus tradition and Paul would not have needed to reference it.

Finally, Mike has not referred to this as a myth. He’s referred to it as apocalyptic. Myth and apocalyptic writings are not the same thing.

Now I did post on Pastor Tim’s blog yesterday that I would be posting this today. He has not put that comment up. I doubt he will. (It would kind of be like how we have evidence that Geisler has deleted or had deleted disagreeing posts from his Facebook page.) Hopefully this will get around somehow.

I urge Pastor Tim to reconsider what he’s doing right now. I have no doubt that he really thinks he’s fighting for Inerrancy, and in a sense he is, but the bigger picture is being missed.

As it is right now, many young minds are saying they don’t want to join the ETS and some are saying “Well if this is what believing in Inerrancy entails, then so much for Inerrancy.” Inerrancy is being presented as something weak that cannot stand up to scrutiny so one must simply silence the opposition.

Do not dare present ideas that go against our tradition. You will not be accepted. In order to get to play all the reindeer games, you must walk the line with us, and if you do not walk the line, then you must recant or you will be shunned from the community.

Which will lead people in the end to believe that the Bible has many errors.

In fact, Stephen Bedard, another internet blogger, wrote recently that an atheist wrote something in the local paper showing how this conflict shows that the Bible isn’t true. Do a web search for “Geisler” and “Licona” and you can see what the atheist world is saying about the conflict. It’s becoming apparent to them that if Geisler’s case wins the day, it means you cannot be objective and be an evangelical scholar.

Now by Geisler’s case, I do not mean just that the event is historical. Geisler could be entirely right in that. I mean the way that he has presented his case and the methodology that he has used in dealing with an opponent. Many other Christians are calling for Geisler to let this go and make amends to Mike. The scholarly world, the evangelical world, the Christian world, and the whole of the world are not being benefited by this.

Let us also remember what Mike has said. If Geisler apologized to him, he would welcome him with open arms and put it all behind him.

I’d love to see that happen, but at this point, I am skeptical of that. (I just hope Pastor Tim will not now say I’m endorsing skepticism since I stated that position) I do think this is starting to come to a close, but will it be a wound that gets properly healed, or will it be a scar that remains for a long time on evangelicalism?

We shall see.