Tag: Protestants

Thoughts On Reformation Day

Is Reformation Day a day to celebrate? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

Sometimes it seems odd to me to celebrate Reformation Day. Don’t get me wrong on this. I’m happy to be a Protestant Christian. I do have points I disagree with with both the Catholic and the Orthodox branches. At the same time, I see them as my brothers and sisters in Christ. My ex-wife used to attend an Orthodox Church and I’m sure if I went back to Georgia and visited them, they would recognize me and welcome me with open arms. I was always a friendly face at the Bible studies and other things that would take place.

On the other side, I have several Catholic friends I more regularly get to interact with because we have a Zoom meeting every Thursday night. It’s a group to discuss especially Thomas Aquinas. I’m one of the token Protestants in the group who does know Aquinas well and my running joke is I am there to make sure everyone gets their doctrine and their Bible correct, especially when I answer a question many seem stumped on or have to explain a point of Thomism. Last Thursday, I even commented on Luke 1:35 and how I would exegete it, certainly not a contentious verse between us.

I am a member of a debate group on Facebook for all three branches, but when I see something, rarely do I say how one group is wrong in their doctrine. I have no interest in that. Instead, I comment when one group is I think misrepresenting another group. I would hope that over the years, people would know I want to make sure any position is represented accurately and that even my Catholic and Orthodox friends who disagree with me will say I am still fair with them and don’t have a chip on my shoulder against them.

Now I do appreciate that the Reformation took place. At the same time, it’s a sad state of human affairs that we couldn’t have everything worked out. As is the case in most any human affair, I suspect there were bad moves played on both sides. I’m not about to claim Martin Luther is the holiest man who ever lived, nor am I to say he’s a total villain.

I also am sure everyone can agree there were problems in the Catholic Church at the time. Even if one doesn’t agree with all that happened, it can be said that Luther did raise up some valid concerns that needed to be addressed. If he hadn’t, then why was there ever a Counter-Reformation?

I do think there was good that came out as we had a renewed look at exploring the traditions that the Catholic Church held to to see which were likely to be true and which were not. Naturally, there are some I disagree with or else I would be Catholic today. There was a renewed interest in Bible study and a push to let everyone have access to the Bible.

These are good, though I won’t deny there are some downsides, like again any human endeavor, as when great minds who have great respect for the Bible and its culture read it, we get some great insights. Unfortunately, there are a number of people who are convinced the Holy Spirit is telling them stuff that’s absolutely nonsense and no need to study. Consider it like the internet. Put great information in the hands of the populace and a lot of people will misuse it.

One of the greatest areas of sadness with this to me is the Lord’s Supper. (Which the way we do it is hardly a supper anyway and I think the majority of churches just giving out a piece of bread or a cracker and a drink of wine or juice are doing it wrong anyway then) This was meant to be a time of unity where we were all to gather together and celebrate. Instead, it’s now a reminder of disunity. I am remembering going up in the Orthodox Church and I could get a blessing from Father B who led it, but he could never give me a piece of the bread. (Although I did come up afterwards when extra were handed out and it was okay.) I wonder if there were times he wanted to give me some of the bread as well anyway.

I celebrate many of the doctrines that came out of the Reformation, but I don’t celebrate the disunity. I look forward to celebrating at the throne one day with all my Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox brothers and sisters. I suspect we won’t spend eternity going on and on about who was right. (Some of you better hope not because you know me and if it’s me, I will never let it go!)

So yes, I did celebrate in some sense, but I will celebrate even more when we can all worship together.

In Christ,
Nick Peters
(And I affirm the virgin birth)

 

 

What I Value About The Three Branches

Are there things to learn from every branch of Christianity? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

When my wife started looking into Eastern Orthodoxy to convert, I wasn’t that happy. Reactionary at first, yeah, but over time, I have modified my viewpoint on this some. Now I am still a thoroughly convinced Protestant. At the same time, I have learned areas about my tradition I appreciate more and areas in other traditions that need to be emphasized better in my own Protestant tradition.

So what do I see in my Protestantism that I emphasize? First off, I am convinced the history is largely on our side since I see many beliefs in the Catholic and Orthodox churches that I don’t think can be traced back to the apostles. When I want to know what is reliable, I look at the history and I find the New Testament measures up well. For other traditions, it’s a case by case basis. No one ever believes all traditions. Traditions contradict one another. Only select traditions are believed.

Second, I really do think that the Protestants are known as people of the book and we are the ones that do some of the most in-depth research in Scripture. As my wife and I had lunch with an Orthodox couple one day they did say that we Protestants know our Bibles. If someone in the Catholic and Orthodox tradition agrees with this, the good news is our findings are available to all. Anyone can partake and accept them.

Catholics I think have an edge on moral philosophy. Again, this is something that is open to all, but I am thankful they are on our side with pro-life causes and defending marriage. I don’t agree with everything on this end still, but I do think some of the best comes from them.

For the Orthodox, my wife and I meet with the priest on a regular basis every two weeks go get regular counsel. I find this to be helpful because if there is something I really like that Allie is getting, it is some ancient wisdom. Too many people in my tradition seem to cut ourselves off from the past as if we are the only people the Holy Spirit has ever led into truth. We’re not.

I do think also there is a proper emphasis on worship. This is not to say that I agree with much that goes on in the worship services, such as prayers to the saints and to Mary, but I do realize the heart of it all. Even though I don’t agree with much of what I see, I do see a desire to take matters seriously and I have a great respect for that.

So while I am still a thoroughly convinced Protestant, I do think my perspective has been enriched by this journey. I have a good friend online who is a Catholic priest and I get along just fine with the priest at the Orthodox Church. (And both have also let me know that they affirm the virgin birth, which I do affirm.) I sometimes wonder how we can be more ecumenical, but I think I see it when I get together to talk with my friends of a different persuasion. When we get to eternity, I don’t think it’d be proper to say we’ll all be Protestants, Catholics, or Orthodox.

We’ll all be Christians.

Maybe we should just emphasize that right now.

In Christ,
Nick Peters

Book Plunge: Eastern Orthodox Christianity – A Western Perspective

What do I think of Daniel Clendenin’s book published by Baker Academic? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

I’d like to thank Dr. Clendenin for sending me the two books he has on this topic. I hope before too long to get to the second one. This one is the perspective and the other is the reader.

Clendenin states his case first by explaining Eastern Orthodoxy. He does this from the perspective of a Western Protestant who had to do some long-term work in Russia. Here in America, normally, most Christians are Protestants. In Russia, the situation appears to be that most are Orthodox.

The first chapter is actually a defense of Orthodoxy. This is most likely written to help explain people like Franky Schaeffer and Peter Gillquist. For those concerned by those names together, Clendenin does not put them on the same level. In the last chapter, for instance, he says we need to listen more to the Timothy Wares and Thomas Odens than to the Frank Schaeffers.

Many of us from the Protestant perspective put Orthodox on the same level as Catholics. The paradox is that they often do the same with us. I believe Clendenin is wanting us to see that we’re all Christians.

There are some problematic statements. We can include the idea on p. 30 that Orthodoxy makes the strongest claim to unbroken apostolic succession and that the idea of salvation outside of its church is a questionable assumption. It’s only natural that many outside the church will look with suspicion on a claim like this, especially since Orthodoxy is really a minority position in the world and if Clendenin is right, is dwindling.

Clendenin then goes into the doctrine of God. In the West, we often have our theology laid out in a systematic way. Not so in the East where it looks like personal experience is much more relevant and that God is known in mystery. The main idea is actually that we know more what God is not. There is some of this in the West, but the idea is quite different to our ears.

The section on icons is quite interesting. There’s a brief look at the debate on icons. I was surprised to hear that for the first 300 years or so, icons weren’t supported in the church. Naturally, one cannot read all through the church fathers immediately and see, but I did get out my Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs and look up icons, which pointed me to art and images. Looking up images, I found that that does seem to be the case.

Still, I think those in support of icons had the best arguments Biblically. I just think that going with history and tradition, the iconoclasts had the better argument. Naturally, I go with Scripture the most. That being said, I understand the concerns about the possibility of idolatry. It is a danger those in Eastern traditions need to be concerned about. I have been in services that were arranged to celebrate the coming of an icon and it does concern me to see that happening.

There’s also an interesting juxtaposition. When the iconoclasts were in charge, they tried to destroy icons. When the other side was, they tried to destroy the writings of the iconoclasts. If only we could go back and tell Christians to not destroy their material or even the material of their pagan opponents. We could learn so much that way.

Next comes Scripture and tradition, which is always a touchy issue. Clendenin argues that it’s not an either/or. It’s more which conception of tradition do we go with. A Protestant like myself wants to know how a tradition can be shown to A) come from the apostles and B) be shown to be true. We don’t reject all of them. I think there’s good basis for thinking Mark is the testimony of Peter. That’s not on the same level as, say, the nature of the Eucharist. One is a historical claim. One is a metaphysical claim.

At the same time, we in the West need to be mindful of tradition. The Reformers would agree with this saying that all must be interpreted according to the rule of faith and they were quite eager to go to the Patristics. We can’t consider the church fathers infallible, especially since they disagreed on some issues, but we don’t need to disregard them entirely.

There’s a section on theosis, but I think I’d really like to get to the part on the hermeneutic of love. In this, Clendenin wants to look at how we can all get along. Still, he has some critiques of the system as a whole.

Protestants need to be open to the idea as many of us still use artwork. When I used to get pastoral counseling at a church, sometimes I would get there early and I would go to a room for private prayer. Honestly, artwork rarely moves me. I’m just not that type of person, but there was a stained glass portrait of Jesus with a shepherd’s staff knocking gently on a door. I always liked that painting.

Yet on the other side, Orthodoxy has a hurdle to say that icons are mandatory. The use of icons enjoyed less than universal acceptance in the early church. Does it really help the cause of unity to have statements about those who reject icons being heretics?

It’s also worth pointing out that when God gave us a communication of Himself for future generations, it was in a book. The Old Testament has them and the New Testament as well. It was not in icons. While icons can help us think about events in the Gospels, they can’t fully pass on the Gospel message.

When it comes to Scripture and tradition, it is pointed out that Scripture was canonized and not a tradition. Tradition is good to have, but some traditions could detract from Scripture. A tradition being old does not equal true nor does a tradition having wide support from the Patristics equal that.

Clendenin points out the church fathers were not monolithic and Orthodoxy could benefit from a critical eye looking at them and weighing them out. On the other hand, if the Orthodox depend too heavily on the fathers, Protestants depend too little. We could bear to go back and see the history of the doctrines we believe.

Where do we go from here? Clendenin does present some concerns. When there is a call for dialogue between Orthodox and Protestants, it has been the Protestants mainly who have been initiating. Protestants tend to get an idea that they are less than welcome at the table as it were.

He also quotes Weber who says “Successionists must be highly selective and ignore all evidence to the contrary. They must also maintain an idealized and naive view of the past. In the end, successionism is based on one’s theology or ideology, not on any critical historical analysis.” Clendenin follows with, “I believe that Orthodoxy’s historical claim to unbroken apostolic succession is just that; it is a theological claim that is, ironically, uncritically unhistorical.”

He also argues that when you look at worship talked about in the New Testament, it’s often descriptive and not prescriptive. How many of us have services like in 1 Corinthians where one person stands up to speak and then another stands up to speak? The Lord’s Supper I think was done extremely differently. One would think if the main issue was over the meaning of the words Jesus said, Paul would clarify that. Instead, Paul asks us to examine ourselves. I don’t think it’s so much getting a theology right as making sure our hearts are right.

The liturgy is no doubt moving and beautiful to some, but to others, it is not. Some will be helped on the path of discipleship. Some will not. Clendenin gives two examples. Ed Rommen was a Protestant turned Orthodox because of the beauty of the liturgy. James Stamoolis was an Orthodox who became an evangelical Protestant because the liturgy was deeply unsatisfying. Perhaps it’s not a question of one being right and one being wrong, although that could be there, but a point more of different styles of worship connecting with different people. My wife is drawn in more by aesthetics and music, for example. I am more drawn in by ideas. To each their own.

Clendenin’s book is a great work. I think many Orthodox could read it and not have a problem with it and hopefully at the end with the criticisms and concerns say, “Thanks. We’ll keep that in mind.” It would be good also to see more Orthodox willing to study Protestantism and why we believe what we believe.

In Christ,
Nick Peters

Deeper Waters Podcast 12/13/2017: Kenneth Collins and Jerry Walls

What’s coming up? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

500 years ago this year was the Reformation. Those who don’t learn from history are often condemned to repeat it. Today, there are many who still look at this as one of the most important moments in church history. Some today say it definitely still matters.

Two such ones are my guests today. They contend that there is still a divide between the churches and want to explain why they think that is. I would like the audience to know that while this show is about the Reformation and Roman Catholicism, I happily fellowship with Catholics and others. We had originally arranged a debate that would have a Catholic and an Eastern Orthodox scholar on as well. They backed out a week before and there was not enough time then to get some other scholars on. I still wanted to do this show so please understand I wanted to have both sides on to talk about the matter.

So on my special interview for today, I’ll be talking to a couple of Protestant scholars about why they take the stance that they do. They have recently released a book called Roman, But Not Catholic. If possible, we will also be giving away some copies of the book. My guests today are Kenneth Collins and Jerry Walls. So who are they?

First, Jerry Walls

According to his bio:

Jerry L. Walls is Scholar in Residence and Professor of Philosophy at Houston Baptist University.  He has authored or edited over a dozen books and over eighty articles and reviews.  Among his books are: Hell: The Logic of Damnation (University of Notre Dame Press, 1992); Heaven: The Logic of Eternal Joy (Oxford University Press, 2002); Purgatory: The Logic of Total Transformation (Oxford University Press, 2012); and The Oxford Handbook of Eschatology, ed. (Oxford University Press, 2008).   His co-authored book with David Baggett, Good God: The Theistic Foundations of Morality (Oxford University Press, 2011) was named the best book in apologetics and evangelism by Christianity Today in their annual book awards in 2012.  He is also a big sports fan, and has done two books about basketball: Basketball and Philosophy: Thinking outside the Paint (coedited with Greg Bassham, University of Kentucky Press, 2007); and Wisdom from the Hardwood: Defining a Success Worth Shooting For(Gray Matter Books, 2012).

And Kenneth Collins:

According to his bio:

Kenneth J. Collins is an internationally recognized scholar in the field of Historical Theology and Wesley studies.  He has given lectures in England, South Korea,  Russia, Estonia, Finland, Costa Rica and elsewhere.   

 

Dr. Collins is a graduate of Asbury (M.Div.) and Princeton (Th.M.) seminaries, and he did his doctoral work in Wesley studies at Drew University.  Collins taught philosophy and religion at Methodist College (now a university) for over a decade before his was appointed a professor Historical Theology and Wesley Studies at Asbury Theological Seminary, the position that he currently holds.

 

The author and editor of fifteen books, Professor Collins has produced scores of articles and numerous reviews. His books have been translated into Russian and Korean—and soon Chinese.   His Wesley titles included the following:

 

  • The Works of John Wesley: Doctrinal and Controversial Treatises II. Vol. 13. Nashville: Abingdon Press, 2013.

 

  • The Sermons of John Wesley: A Collection for the Christian Journey. Nashville: Abingdon Press, 2013.

 

  • The Theology of John Wesley: Holy Love and the Shape of Grace. Nashville: Abingdon Press, 2007.

 

  • John Wesley: A Theological Journey. Nashville: Abingdon Press, 2003.

 

  • Conversion in the Wesleyan Tradition. Primary editor along with John Tyson, assistant editor.  Nashville: Abingdon Press, 2001

 

  • A Real Christian: The Life of John Wesley.  Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1999.

 

  • The Scripture Way of Salvation: The Heart of John Wesley’s Theology. Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1997.

 

Beyond this, Dr. Collins has written numerous articles in the field of Wesley studies too numerous to mention here.

 

As a researcher in American religion, especially in terms of evangelicalism,  Collins has written two important works:  The Evangelical Moment: The Promise of an American Religion and Power, Politics and the Fragmentation of Evangelicalism:  From the Scopes Trial to the Obama Administration.    

His most recent book (released October, 2017), along with co-author Dr. Jerry L. Walls,  is Roman But Not Catholic: What Remains at Stake 500 Years After the Reformation.   

 

He is currently working on a One Volume Wesley Bible Commentary that is being prepared along with Dr. Joel Green.  It will be published by Abingdon Press.

 

Having received numerous teaching awards, Dr. Collins is a dynamic lecturer and is the former president of the Wesleyan Theological Society.  In addition, he has been on the steering committee of both the Wesleyan Studies Group of the American Academy of Religion and the Oxford Institute of Methodist Theological Studies.  His is the Director of the Wesley Studies Summer Seminar and The Wesleyan Holiness Pentecostal Studies Center.   He is an ordained elder in the United Methodist Church.

I hope you’ll be listening to this episode and whether you agree or disagree, may we all be better informed. Please also go on iTunes and leave a positive review of the Deeper Waters Podcast.

In Christ,
Nick Peters

Apostles Creed: The Holy Catholic Church

Can a Protestant say they believe in the Holy Catholic Church? Let’s talk about it on Deeper Waters.

Sometimes, I discuss the question of Catholicism, but in the long run, it doesn’t really interest me that much. As it stands, I have numerous other things to study and I tend to focus on what Lewis referred to as “Mere Christianity.” I am Protestant and actually attend a Lutheran church at the moment. Am I ready to sign on the dotted line and say I’m a Lutheran? No. Still, I think our church right now is simply wonderful and I look forward to what we’re doing and I’m honored to get to serve.

My own position with regards to Catholics and at this point I could say members of the various churches called Orthodox (With a capital o as really, all churches should seek to be orthodox in their teaching) is that they are my brothers and sisters in Christ. I am certainly not one of those who thinks the Catholic Church is hellbound or that the Pope is the antichrist or such ideas as that. I am thankful that my Catholic brothers and sisters that I interact with also do not call my Christianity into question.

Some readers out there might be saying that there are several lost Catholics out there. You know what? I agree with them.

There are also several lost Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, Pentecostals, etc.

Now the word Catholic really means universal. A good Christian can then say they believe in a universal church. Some might wonder about this with the supposed claim of x thousand denominations. (The number keeps changing.) The reality is that this claim is usually not looked into too much. You could have two churches in the same town that have the exact same belief and both of them could be counted as denominations. Why? Because these are self-governing bodies. There could be two in the same town because maybe it’s a really large area and two are set up due to the distances people are willing to travel to go to church.

For more on this, see this helpful and entertaining video by my ministry partner, J.P. Holding.

The main advice I’d give here is we all need to seek to avoid the extreme positions. I have learned much from my brothers and sisters of other denominations. Peter Kreeft comes to mind immediately and he is one who prays for the unification of the churches. I would hope that many of my Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters would say that they too have learned from reading the writings of those of us who are Protestant.

Also, if I was asked to state what the church of Jesus Christ truly is, it is those who recognize Jesus as Lord and Messiah both. Wherever you have them gathered, you have the church to an extent. Christ is present in the midst of us. When we get to eternity, we will find people from the Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox traditions there together worshiping before the throne of God. We might as well learn to get along together now. Of course we can discuss our differences, but let’s strive to do so realizing that we all still proclaim Jesus as Lord.

In Christ,

Nick Peters